The Bible on Sex, Love, and Marriage

Simple - honesty and communication.If spouses approve of their partners having sex with someone else, and are fully aware of it, it is not a problem for that couple.Some couples choose to be completely open, others may regard potential outside sexual partners on a case-by-case / situation-by-situation basis.But the honesty and communication point is extremely important - if one partner lies about feelings for someone else, or being okay with their partner being with someone else - then problems can arise.Keep in mind though, that in many open relationships, the spouse is in the same room when their partner is with someone else, or the couple may be having sex with someone else at the same time.

Have you actually been reading the posts from Dan and I? The one you replied to included my statement, "If spouses approve of their partners having sex with someone else, and are fully aware of it, it is not a problem for that couple."The counter to that, is that if the approval and openness is not there, it is a problem - I thought that should be obvious.My wife and I discuss having sex with other people, sometimes having sex together with the person, sometimes as individuals - we also have our own set of rules about what sex acts we will engage in with other people. Depending on the people and situation we approve or disprove, and act accordingly. What is so hard to understand? You also seem to have a silly notion that any instances of open relationships are strictly for the man's sake. As my wife would surely tell you, that is quite a misconception - since she also benefits from the joys of group sex and outside partners.If either my wife or I elected to have sex in a situation that the other disproved of, yes, that would be a serious problem for a relationship.But this wouldn't be caused by the sex itself, but rather by the betrayal.I would feel equally betrayed if my wife went skydiving, since that is one of the few things I have asked her not to do, and after understanding my concerns and point of view, she agreed.Similarly, she has asked me never to participate in a demolition derby, and I've agreed.Good relationships are first seeded with honesty and openness - compromise necessarily follows. I wouldn't (and haven't) married someone who "really doesn't care what I say", and suggest you don't, either.From your statements, you seem to have a very immature view of relationships...

dpardo,Though interesting, maybe not thread-worthy as stated, since there are a heck of a lot of guys and gals beating up their girlfriends and boyfriends.

If you read my above post, perhaps you'll understand that honesty and communication, (not to mention humor, trust, compromise, and of course, love), are especially necessary to maintain an open relationship.Those traits provide a great environment to raise children in.Perhaps a counter question should be:Should children really be raised by parents who don't trust and communicate well enough to allow each other outside relationships? I've been in one for over five years, and it's getting better all the time...better... better... beeeeettttteeeerrrr....

Wow, I was obviously thinking Beatles, but somehow missed the 'hole' angle.Gee, Dan, you're making me question my own perversion...

Then why are you trying to generalize? - 1 out of 5 is a lot of people...Obviously my wife and belong to the other 21%, and an open relationship works for us.It is not leading us to divorce, in fact it has made our relationship more honest and open, and thus stronger.It works for us, so what's the problem?It sounds like it wouldn't work for you or Dan, so what's the problem?Do what works for you.(As an aside, my wife and I won't have sex with anyone in a relationship who hasn't discussed it with their partner and gotten approval...)

Probably not, since she isn't one to post... and "current state of your marriage" makes your question sound quite negative, like this is a black spot on our marriage - it is not.And we both feel we have a wonderful, loving, strong relationship.Do you want to know other specifics? I can give you my impression of how she would answer (do you get the open/honest part yet?) and/or can ask her and post her comments.You do understand: That both my wife and I participate in the open relationship, and that usually we're in the same room and/or simultaneously sharing an outside partner?Perhaps you need to get over a misconception that open relationships are a male-driven phenomenon?This message has been edited by pink sasquatch, 10-21-2004 05:55 PM

Doesn't sound like you are taking my word for it. It also doesn't sound like you would believe my wife's assessment either, since you made up your mind before the discussion started. I don't think I'll bother her.My wife and I feel that our love and our relationship is getting stronger every day, and we count ourselves lucky. Your doubt and line of questioning, as Crash perceived above, is indeed insulting.Given that, I don't think I'll try to justify any more aspects of my personal life to you.Are you even married yourself? Maybe it's time to start probing into your relationships...

Have you read my previous posts on this? I thought I outlined what I thought was key to our success pretty well.What don't you understand?

No to both, I was being a bit sarcastic in response to someone doubting my ability to raise children based on my sex life... though, I do believe that for an open relationship to work, communication and trust must be in full working order.From our own personal experience with other couples, the healthy open relationships do have the highest degree of communication and trust (small sample size), judging that in part from complaints of lack of trust and communication from our friends in closed relationships (larger sample size).I'm not extrapolating this anecdotal evidence in any way to the world at large, and would never pass judgement on the health of a relationship based on its 'closed' or 'open' status - especially since we've also known of open relationships that have failed due to lack of communication and trust.

I don't see why equality is troublesome - perhaps you could explain. Since equality makes for a good friendship, why doesn't it make for a good marriage - your spouse should be your best friend, after all. Perhaps if you have the silly notion that each partner gets a single vote on an issue - that's not how real (healthy) relationships work - you communicate and compromise out of respect and understanding.I would argue that giving one person the final say on every topic in a relationship can only harbor resentment and loss of respect.Ever have a boss or other authority figure demand you do something pointless, despite your logical arguments to the pointlessness of it? How did you feel? Frustrated and annoyed, or full of love and respect?

Perhaps you should take the fact that two of us read your post and misunderstood your intent as less an indication that we are "playing around," and more of indication that your post was less than clear...

Any student of math would know that "exact equal" is redundant. "Equal" and "exact equal" mean the same thing. So, if both people in a relationship are equally complete assholes, then the relationship won't be very good. I'd agree with that, not because of the equality part, but because of the asshole part...If one partner is incapable of letting the other make a decision, and the other is incapable of making a decision, it may seem like a good match, but that doesn't make it healthy. I believe the term for that kind of relationship is "codependent" and is deserving of some therapy... First, where does the Bible comment on this specifically? Second, the majority of long-term couples I know do consider each other their best friends, so I'm not sure what you are basing your 'society' idea on...Really, I still don't understand why you are seemingly arguing in favor of the 90/10 model over the 50/50 model.Have you had a chance to thing about:
Ever have a boss or other authority figure demand you do something pointless, despite your logical arguments to the pointlessness of it? How did you feel? Frustrated and annoyed, or full of love and respect?In any case, I think Schraf's comment sums it up best, and is deserving of reposting: This message has been edited by pink sasquatch, 10-23-2004 05:23 PM

A silly analogy, since it's "rarer" for best friends to share assets. Besides, I would argue that married couples who are also best friends are less likely to divorce, and if they are best friends but nevertheless get a divorce, there will be respect through the break up. Overall divorce stats say nothing regarding the argument at hand, which is whether being best friends (or equals) in a marriage supports a healthy marriage. I could easily counter with, "The high divorce rate in this country shows that people aren't taking the time to find a potential spouse who is also their best friend, and so those relationships are failing."From my own personal (anecdotal) experience, the healthiest married couples I know are best friends. These are not self-declared best friends, as you've described. While they've never said "Hey everybody, we're best friends!", it is obvious from their love and respect and communication and trust, and perhaps most importantly, how they look at each other. While obviously the divorce rate is high in the U.S., not all of them end on a whim as you describe, and not all of them end with the former partners thinking of each other as a "rancid worthless piece of crap." Do you have stats on how many divorces proceed in this way? They are exact equals in terms of mass, yes. We were talking about equality in a specific instance, decision-making. Given your analogy, next you'll prove that a man and woman could never be "exact equals" because one has a penis and the other a vagina. You can explain your interpretation, if you like - I don't have my Bible at hand. You didn't really answer the main point of the exercise, (not that you have to), which was whether or not being forced to follow through on a decision that you deem pointless makes you well up with respect and love for the person that made that decision, or does it cause frustration? Right, because I couldn't possible disagree or find fault with it... Again, your generalizations only work when one or both members of a relationship are complete assholes. I don't think in terms of what percentage I owe my wife, or how great I am because I've done something for her. Instead I support her with what she needs, and she does the same for me, because we love and respect each other - not to support our egos or fill a Biblical quota.Here is the problem with your arguments, in my opinion: You are basing all of your arguments for what makes a healthy relationship on what makes relationships fail, rather than what makes relationships succeed.Most of your points fall apart if you remove "the asshole factor".

It doesn't seem to be that way for myself, Crash, or Schraf - it seems we all got married as a lifetime commitment of love, respect, and equality. So? Who needs a higher authority when you are committed to each other? If the only reason a couple stays together is because of fear of God, that is not a very healthy relationship...Your posts still seem very contradictory to me: You seem to be crapping all over modern marriage practices. Yet you also state that the Biblical model fails in modern times. So basically you are anti-marriage, seemingly because you are anti-divorce. I'm beginning to think that you, or someone close to you, went through a really painful divorce.[By the way, I've never heard of a "pre-num" - I'm pretty sure you mean "pre-nup" as in prenuptial.]