The Bible on Sex, Love, and Marriage

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The husband and wife, in a marriage, are a team. The team has to have a leader so that they can function effectively together.

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Why?There are many equal partnerships in life in which neither partner has the final say all the time, about everything.

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In a football team, for example, there are quarterbacks, runningbacks, and receivers, etc. The quarterback decides what plays are going to be run (based on instruction from the coach), and the team executes that play. The quarterback is not superior to the runningback, receiver or other players but they need to have a system in place in order to function effectively, right?

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There are several problems with this analogy.A marriage is between two people, not a whole group.A marriage is a love relationship for life, not a group that comes together to accomplish a task.

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Someone has to be able to decide, ultimately, what course of action the team is going to take.

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In a equal partnership, why can't the two people come to mutually-negotiated descisions together?Why won't that work?

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Can the team decide to take two different courses of action and have success?

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Why can't two people have success by discussing the various courses of action that may be taken and then come to a mutually agreed-upon descision?

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Ideally, any good husband is going to listen to counsel from his wife concerning the affairs of the marriage. Especially in areas where the wife's knowledge/ability exceeds the husband's. But, ultimately, if they disagree on the course of action to take, the husband, the bible claims, is to have the final say.

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But, he doesn't have to listen to her. IT is pretty much optional for him.Ultimately, her opinions do not count. What it seems to boil down to is that the man always can get his way because he can always overrule his wife no matter what, because God says so.All of this, "Yes, we'll listen to what the little woman has to say before I make the descision" crap is just incredibly patronizing.That is not an equal partnership. Nor is it a relationship between adults. That is a parent/child relationship.That is not healthy.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-15-2004 07:52 AM

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If the husband completely ignores the wife's input, there will be strife and resentment.

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But if a husband ultimately has the final say, isn't that an awful lot like a parent/child relationship?When the man and wife, who are both mature adults, disagree, why should the man always have the final say, as if he is the parent and she is the child?That a man should want his wife to submit to his dominance in this way is really icky.That a woman should be taught to always submit to another's will to be a good wife is demeaning.An adult relationship is one where neither person can simply overrule the other's will.

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To the extent that they both fulfill their roles, they will have a rewarding marriage.

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But see, that's not what the evidence shows.The evidence shows that, by definition, these roles lead to the highest divorce rates among all groups.The lowest divorce rates come from non-believers.

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This would be an abuse of his authority.

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The thing is, just having the "authority" at all is a really big problem if you want to have a healthy, adult relationship.Do you have a best friend? Which one of you has the "authority" to make descisions for your relationship if you both disagree about something?Seems silly, and kind of offensive if you imagine yourself as the one having to submit to another's descision in disagreements, doesn't it?My point is, there are many, many outdated practices mentioned in the Bible: how one should keep slaves, sell their daughters, use women, etc.Why are the obviously anachronistic marriage rules followed when all of these other rules are ignored?Women are not chattel anymore. They are even considered to be full human beings. Lately, we've even begun to think of them as just as intelligent and grown up as men.Why force them to be less than fully adult because you pick and choose what you will follow from the Bible?(I think I know why men like this arrangement...)

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What usually ends up happening if your best friend and you disagree on a course of action?

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Well, if it's a really major descision then we talk about it until we come to a mutual agreement that takes into account both of our opinions, wants, and needs.If it is a minor "where do you want to go to get dinner"-type issue, then whoever feels the most strongly in their opinion, or whoever has the best reasoning for why to go to one retaurant over another gets to decide, usually.Sometimes it is me who gets to decide, and sometimes it is my best friend.

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The model here is that we should love our wives as Christ loved the church.

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The problem in the Bible is that it lays out marriage/family as an extremely hierarchical construct.1) God2) Man3) WomanWhat kind of adult relationship can you ever hope to have with a woman if you view her as lower than you on the hierarchy?

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You don't have to view her as "lower".

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She is equal to you.

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But a leader and a follower in an intimate love relationship are not, by definition, equal.The only time I have ever been a follower in a personal relationship is when I was a child under the leadership of my parents and older siblings.Would you say that a child is equal to the parent in their relationship?Besides, the Bible rather clearly indicates that women and men are not equal, and that men are to rule over women:Gen 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to [b]thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.[i]I Cor 11:7
For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.11:8
For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.11:9
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.It is very clear in even a cursory reading of the Bible that women are not equal to men, but are subservient to men.

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We simply have different roles.

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Separate but equal?Where have I heard that before?

But this is just an admonition to not be "treacherous".It doesn't say anything about treating her as an equal adult.

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Have you ever had a situation with your friend where you couldn't agree?

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If so, what happened?

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Well, in the case of one best frind, we are no longer friends.In the case of my most best friend (my husband), we just keep working at it until we reach a compromise that is acceptable to both of us.Since we are quite compatable and want the best for each other, the give and take all evens out in the end.

dpardo, I kind of feel like you skirted a major point of min that I made in a previous message...

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If the husband completely ignores the wife's input, there will be strife and resentment.

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Uh, I guess I didn't remember.

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I have to go off-line now but I will certainly get to your questions as quickly as I can. It may not be until Monday, but I will get back to you.

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No problem, of course.Let me ask you another question, though.If God's plan for a happy, fulfilling marriage is this leader/follower relationship, can you give me some examples of what it looks like in action?I mean, so far the only example you have given is that when the husband and wife disagree, the man always wins.What does this "leadership" look like on a daily basis?

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They are not equal in their roles but they are of equal worth to God.

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Is a student inferior to a teacher?

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Is a student equal in status to a teacher?Is the husband meant to intruct his wife and the wife meant to learn from the husband?That doesn't sound equal in status to me.

Basically, you have not really given me any specifics other than rather strict, arbitrary gender roles.So, it is still the case then, that the leadership role of the man in a Christian marriage pretty much consists of overruling his wife's will when they cannot agree about something.How does the husband always getting his way during really difficult disagreements constitute an equal relationship between mature, full adults?How does a woman always submitting to her husband's will during really difficult disagreements constitute an equal relationship between mature, full adults?Please elaborate.

Also, a reply to massage #44 in this thread would be appreciated.Thanks.

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Their roles are different but, at no time, is the student inferior to the teacher as far as his worth.

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I wasn't talking about their worth.I was talking about their status.

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As in the example of the football team, a receiver or running back (or any other player for that matter) is not inferior to the quarterback. If a player fails to carry out his responsibility, the team suffers. Likewise, if a spouse neglects a responsibility in a marriage, the marriage suffers.

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I have already explained to you that a football team is not a good analogy to a marriage.A marriage is a lifelong love relationship between two people.By contrast, a football team consists of a group of people coming together to perform a certain task.

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Oftentimes the wife's knowledge is superior to the man's in many arenas. They would be wise to instruct each other in areas where one's knowledge exceeds the other.

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"It would be wise" for a husband to take his wife's instruction when she knows more than him, correct?...but he doesn't have to consider his wife's instruction, right?...and the wife always must, without any exceptions, abide by her husband's descisions when they disagree, right?