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Author | Topic: Method of Madness: post-hoc reasoning and confirmation bias. | |||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
I just realized that you ignored this simple question in your reply:
In short, I know what I know from the Bible. quote:
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
You know that the Bible is true because you believe the Bible is true? quote: That is circular reasoning. Just because you believe something is true, and just because you "feel" something is true, doesn't allow you to know it is true. A disinterested observer cannot use your faith as evidence to determine if the bible is true or not. He or she must have confiming evidence out side of the Bible itself that anyone can view and examine.
quote: That's a nice personal faith, but faith is not the same as knowledge.
quote: Right, that's why you cannot know the Bible is true, you can only have faith that it is.
quote: Like what? Please be specific.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Interestingly, in this state the car owner has the legal right to examine and take home any part that the mechanic says needs replacing, so the car owner doesn't have to take the mechanic's word for it, this discouraging the mechanic from replacing or "fixing" things that dodn't need to be. Anyway, what you are talking about is trust, not faith. I have a great deal of information at my disposal before I decide to trust that this mechanic knows what he or she is doing and is treating me correctly. Any disinterested observer can also observe the mechanic, the car, etc., and determine a great deal about the situation. You, however, are the only one who can say what God says to you and does for you. There can be no disintersted observer in your faith situation.
However, a disinterested observer does need these things to determine reality. quote: Are you sure this really happens?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Why should I trust what a missionary thinks is happening? Don't you think that they might just believe what they want to believe about the people they are trying to convert? Oh, and yes, I have spoken to several missionaries and they always get tired of me before I get tired of them.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: LOL! I know the bible says Jesus fulfilled prophecy, but I am talking about clear, unambiguous fulfilled prophecy with evidence from multiple sources to confim it. You can't use the Bible as evidence that the Bible is true. That's circular reasoning.
quote: Oh, come on, you haven't fallen for those Junior High spooky-spooky "what are the odds?!" fallacies, have you? First of all, those translations don't form a sentence. You had to insert words to make it a sentence. Second, are all of these translations of names agreed upon as most accurate, or have they been selected to make more sense in a sentence? Third, since we have no evidence at all that any of these people existed, the "hidden" message could have been a symbolic, literary device. Fourth, why do you cut off the last verse of Gen 5, in which Noah's offspring Shem, Ham, and Japeth are listed? What do their names translate to mean, and do those translations fit into the "sentence"?
quote: Does this sentence also form a grammatical sentence in ancienct Hebrew? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-01-2004 09:30 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I did respond in message #205 of this thread. Your rebuttals were more apologetics and several "No, it isn't"-type comments.
quote: LOL!
quote: No, they actually allow the reader to insert his or her own meaning into the sentence, because there are bits left out.
quote: That is absolutely incorrect. Let's look at the sentences with and without the added articles, shall we? Your version:
Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow; (but) the Blessed God shall come down teaching (that) His death shall bring (the) despairing rest. The non-embellished version:
Man appointed mortal sorrow; the Blessed God shall come down teaching His death shall bring despairing rest. In the non-doctored version, it is man who "appointed mortal sorrow". By inserting "is", you change the meaning significantly. Also, it looks like God is going to come down teaching about God's own death and that this will bring rest, but that this rest is characterized by the feeling of despair.
quote: I don't buy that, and I'll explain why in a moment.
Second, are all of these translations of names agreed upon as most accurate, or have they been selected to make more sense in a sentence? quote: Here are their roots. Several of them don't make sense in the sentence you gave: Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Adam = origin word:119 to be red, red 120 man, mankind Seth = origin word: to put, set 7896 Enos = origin word: man, mortal man, person, mankind 582 Kenan = origin word: nest 7064 Mahalaleel = origin word: praise, boast 4110 and 410 god, god-like one, mighty one Jered or Jared = origin word: to go down, descend, decline, march down, sink down 3381 Enoch = origin word: to train, dedicate, inaugurate 2596 Methuselah = origin: male, man 4962 and weapon, missile, sprout missile, weapon a. sprout, shoot 7973 Lamech = unused root of uncertain meaning [however has no roots in common with the words used for lamentation or its roots] Noah = origin word: resting place 5118 I actually did find a site which explained all of this, but I'll bet it's one you haven't ever tried to find, because it is a skeptical site. The page cannot be found Here are a few more definition lists from other sites:
1. Smith's Bible Dictionary Smiths Bible Dictionary Online 2. Easton's Bible Dictionary Eastons Bible Dictionary Online 3. Theological Word Book of the Old Testament Strong's #04968 - - Old Testament Hebrew Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org 4. The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon 1)Ad’am (red earth )2) red, a Babylonian word, the generic name for man 3) "red" 4) "red" 1)Seth (compensation ),2) appointed; a substitute 3) "compensation" 4) "compensation" 1)E’nos (mortal man ),2) man the son of Seth 3) "man" 4) "man" 1)Ke’nan (possession )2) Cainan possession; smith. 3) "possession" 4) "possession" 1)Mahal’ale-el (praise of God).2) praise of God. 3) "praise of God" 4) "praise of God" 1)Ja’red (descent ),2) descent. 3) "descent" 4) "descent" 1)E’noch (dedicated).2) initiated. 3) "dedicated " 4) "dedicated" 1)Methu’selah (man of the dart )2) man of the dart, 3) "man of the dart" 4) "man of the dart" 1)La’mech (powerful ),2) the strikerdown; the wild man. 3) "powerful" 4) "powerful" 1)No’ah (rest ),2) rest, 3) "motion" 4) "rest" So, it seems some of the meanings of the words are not clear, and can mean different things. It is obvious that these meanings have been carefully chosen and sifted through to make a coherent sentence, but even then some English words had to be added to change the meaning to the desired one. In some cases, the meanings have been changed outright.
quote: The most common translation for "Seth" is "compensation".
quote: The most common translation of "Methuselah" is "man of the dart". As you can see, some serious liberties were taken to pick and choose and stretch and interpret the meanings of the words in your so-called amazing sentence. Here's the sentence as you submitted it: "Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow; (but) Blessed God shall come down teaching (that) His death shall bring (the) despairing rest." Now lets plug in the most common meanings (or just as common) for the names instead of the cherry picked ones: "Red (is) compensation man posession; (but) praise of God descent dedicated (that) man of the dart (the) powerful rest." Hmm, not really much like the first one, eh? Now lets remove the added articles and punctuation: "Red compensation man posession praise of God descent dedicated man of the dart powerful rest." Even worse now, I'm afraid.
Does this sentence also form a grammatical sentence in ancienct Hebrew? quote: Source and evidence, please. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-02-2004 09:05 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Fourth, why do you cut off the last verse of Gen 5, in which Noah's offspring Shem, Ham, and Japeth are listed? What do their names translate to mean, and do those translations fit into the "sentence"? quote: No, it isn't, either as it's written in Gen 5, nor chronologically. Noah's three sons were born before the flood, and they are included in the geneology in Gen 5. I will ask you again; What are the definitions of their names and do they fit into the sentence? Why were they left off?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
ooooo, yeah, that was a really good one.
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