Method of Madness: post-hoc reasoning and confirmation bias.

There were three people in this room. Micah, his friend, and her friend (the demon-possesed girl). I got the impression all this lasted less than an hour. The events I described happened several times while they were in the room. The girl's face would contort and she would act very strangely, her eyes would roll back, and her own personality would come and go while this battle went on.All I have to go on is Micah's testimony. I have not talked to the other girl (the one that wasn't possesed).I knew Micah for a full school year before he told me this. He has a typical no-nonsense engineer personality and I have never known him to be dishonest.His testimony was, to me, an answered prayer. I had much going on and felt really down that day, so I went into the chapel and prayed off and on for several hours for encouragement, that God would let me know how close and how real he really is, and that he would strengthen my faith again. When I got back to my room, Micah came in and he told me about this and other things God had let him see. I got my answer.Anyway... believe what you will.

Nothing. I did not say learning things was the reason for all suffering although it is usually a big part. Although we will certainly be able to appreciate heaven to a much greater degree after having lived through suffering on earth.

Right, but the atheist argues that because Satan has been alowed to do these things and because evil people are alowed to do these things by God, God is indirectly to blame because he has the power to stop it. I am saying there is a reason he has alowed human and angelic history to occur in the manner it has occured and that his character is not violated by alowing events to play out as they do.

I haven't worked out the intricacies of how God works nor do I think I will ever be able to. But I believe this: there is the permissive will of God and the active will of God and the plan of God.I believe human history is an appeal trial of Satan where God and Satan present their arguments. I believe God's permissive will makes it possible for Satan to have a fair trial. God's active will enables believers to accomplish things in his power. God's plan is what God ultimately desires and what he will ultimately accomplish which is for his creations to fully understand his character and love him of their own free will.

WHAT!?!? I'm nearly 19! haha Well, I certainly don't think the 6 year old girl was edified during her life on earth. But in eternity, she will understand God's justice better seeing her rapist in eternal judgement. KIND of like if my sister was raped and murdered, I would appreciate the justice system in America a whole lot more after her murderer was arrested convicted and executed.But who can fathom all the purposes God has for everything anyways??? It seems kind of pointless to guess why and when and what he's going to do next. He has chosen the lowly things of this world to shame the proud and the foolish things to shame the wise. Our human wisdom cannot comprehend the things God has in store for us. We know his plan is perfect... a very comforting thought in any circumstance.Also, something was said about free will vs. omnipotent God. I can't explain it all. Only God understands it all. But we can approximate with human words and arguments. God's permissive will allows things to happen under the natural laws he created. His direct will, influences things in unobserved ways and sometimes miraculously outside the bounds of nature. His plan is how all things work together for good to those who love him and those who are called according to his purposes. Fatalism is what you people think rules if God is omnipotent. You think because I chose to do something God wanted me to choose it and I had no choice in the first place. God willed that I had the choice. The choice I chose may have displeased him, but he allowed me to make it anyways because that is how this chapter in our lives called human history works. If it did not work this way, it would not have the outcomes he intends to produce.Atheists think that if God was perfect he could produce all the desired outcomes without any pain. This is the epitome of arrogance. Can a vessel say to the potter that made it, "why did you make me this way?"Eternity is a very long time and this is an understatement. Human history is only the first seven chapters of a very long novel. We cannot even imagine what will happen in the future. I understand this argument. It is similar to why the democrats want Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld out of office for the Abu-Ghreb Prison scandal. (of course Bush, etc. are not omnipotent) All this evil happens under His watch, so you think it's his fault.Well, I do not pretend to understand the intricacies of his plan, but we are promised it is a good one and his justice will be served. As I have already explained how from the time/no-time viewpoint his justice will be served. Dude. I already explained how in light of eternity (from her perspective) or in the absence of time boundaries (God's perspective) his justice will be served and injustice vanishes. Are you still ignoring this? Would you like me to explain it again?

A LOT of bad things have happened in my life. I am glad for it. I used to be VERY arrogant, and still tend to be. In fact, participating in this forum has been a bad thing for me sometimes, because it tends to make me more arrogant, but I'm getting over that. By applying Bible doctrines to situations in my life I have gained a great deal of humility and learned a lot more about God in the process. He has been faithful to not test me beyond what I can bear, and His grace has always been sufficient for me. His power is made perfect in my weaknesses.We gain wisdom as humans when we apply Bible doctrine in life. This earthly life by God's design teaches us about His attributes. Shraf, you cannot even imagine what it will be like to be out of this body with it's sin nature. Now we know in part, then we will know fully even as we are fully known. Now we see but a poor reflection, but then perfection will come. Of course I don't. I only know what God has told us in his word. Suffering in this life for the believer is either for edification and blessing or for discipline to bring the believer back to God if he has strayed.But the more one knows the more sorrow one has because the world is filled with suffering. But this is meaningless. The world in it's present form is passing away. Pleasure, wisdom, suffering, power, money, everything else this world has to offer, is meaningless. Only a relationship with God is meaningful and can give meaning to the things of this world. Nope. It's justice. However, I wouldn't hang my happiness on seeing her murderer die. I would also hope and pray that her murderer DID believe in Christ before he died. Eternal judgement is not something to be wished upon anyone. I'm just saying that after judgement by God, no one will question his justice and righteousness. Even those in hell will agree they deserved what they got. Who has known the mind of God? But we have the mind of Christ. Now we know in part, then we shall know fully. I'm saying right now we cannot know all the whys hows whens and whats. It's father's day, so I'll use the Hebrews analogy of God as our father. When I was a little kid, my parents did things I couldn't understand, thought were unfair, or just plain didn't agree with. Now that I'm older I see their purposes behind the things they did and am very glad for it.It's the same way with God. At first I didn't understand why God allowed the things to happen to me that did, but now I do. In fact I even relish setbacks, challenges, sufferings, and whatnot, because it gives me more strength in my weakness, beacuse I depend and trust on God instead of myself. I also get opportunities to show God's strength to others, and I also store up treasures for myself in heaven. When I get to heaven I will understand even better the whys and hows. [qs]Then you cannot ever claim that God ever bestows any blessings or any curses, right? You just can't know anything about what God does. I think Mike's already explained this somewhere else. But why not? Why can't a God who's in complete control give us free will? Are you limiting God's power by saying he can't give us free will? That is dumb. If God could not give us free will he wouldn't be all powerful would He? Human arguments about God are foolish. No. God to you is an illusion. Suppose I'm right and you're wrong. Suppose God is real and as great as I know He is. If He is infintely greater than you, infact only because of him are you alive, who are you to say what is necessary???

I would pray that her rapist did receive Christ. This would not change the fact he deserves the death penalty. But it would change the fact that that person will not spend eternity in hell. Your emotions cloud this issue. No. This is how YOU think NOW. Don't apply your idiocy and subjectivity to things you do not understand. Why not? All sins were paid for in full on the Cross by the only perfect sacrifice, Christ. This satisfied God's justice so that all who accept him are justified. At the final judgement, two things will count: did you believe in Christ, and if so, what fruit of the spirit did you produce with the spiritual life that he gave you?

Yet again you reveal that you are against God, even though you claim to think objectively about the matter and "doubt your doubting". I was explaining your question, not even attempting to PROVE God's existence, yet you turn it around to try to negate His existence. Shraf, you are incapable of having an objective thought about God since every fiber of your being is against him. With such impenatrable arrogance you can never know God. I said the reason for BELIEVER's suffering is either blessing or discipline and ultimately edification in this life OR THE NEXT. The little girl didn't get that far IN THIS LIFE. HOWEVER, she will be blessed greatly in eternity. Nothing to do with God makes any sense to you because you have rejected him. A simple decision to accept him instead of fight him, and you will be amazed at how the pieces of the puzzle fall into place and things WILL make sense, even to your critical mind. But you could never do this. As long as you think you are something when you are nothing, you will remain as you are, arrogant and condemned. Again schraf, you are willfully ignoring what I said. I said that we cannot know ((((ALL)))) of God's reasons. We know in part (what he has told us in His word) and after we are with God in heaven we will know fully. So you are denying God's essesence? Well in that case we are not even talking about the same god and what you are saying may be true of some other god that is not omnipotent.My God is omnipotent, which means he can give us free-will. He can also alow this power experiment called human history to unfold according to it. It is human logic which fails because it puts human limits on God. It's like saying God can't make something so heavy he can't lift it. God is not bound by anything except his own character. If he wants to give us free-will so we can see for ourselves which is better, humility or arrogance, then so be it. My claims about God's nature and character are founded on the principles from God's Word, therefore they are not human in origin.Edited to add: As you've just shown to me in your arguments above, you have no understanding of God's character and his essence does not enter your logic. This statement only reveals more ignorance and arrogance on your part. I've already shown you how God's character and integrity remains perfect. You have not refuted my statements, yet you keep coming back to this argument (4 times), which is a purely emotional reaction and unfounded on theological doctrines. Essentially you are ignoring the truth in favor of a lie."The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'".This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-21-2004 04:43 PM

Yes, you are right. And I am definately not offended! I almost erased that whole line after I wrote it, but went on with it anyways because I was late for work and didn't give it enough thought... my bad! My apologies Schraf.I am not one to say who is condemned. If Schrafinator has at one time believed in Christ, she is sealed with the Holy Spirit and will be in heaven some day no matter what.Like I said, God is ALWAYS working the arrogance out of me. It still pops out from time to time.Thanks for pointing that out Mike. I enjoy reading your posts a lot.

As long as you are alive and kicking, you have an opportunity to believe in Christ and therefore are not doomed. If you never accept him even unto death you will not receive eternal life.Behind all this argumentation, which amounts to nothing, is a simple decision to either accept or reject God.Were you referring to "sealed with the spirit"? I get that from Ephesians which says something to the effect that when you believed you were sealed with the spirit. In other words you are preserved for the exit ressurection of all believers (rapture) and are guaranteed a place in heaven. How you continue to "work out" your salvation determines what inheiritance you receive in heaven.

Jar, is there anything from the Bible that you believe to be truth? It seems to me you have rejected everything the Bible says in favor of your "humble" opinions.

(assuming your married) ask yourself whether you would care if your wife knew you or not. No one is trivial to God. Just because he is awesome doesn't mean he loses track of the little things. This is what makes him so awesome. The God of the universe cares about us!But God has integrity. His righteousness and justice must be satisfied. If God did not adhere to his own character, he would cease to be God.edited to add: no I haven't read "The Last Battle".This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-21-2004 10:59 PM

No, but in the Bible we have a picture of God's love for us as the love between a bridegroom and bride in marriage.Christ's love for the Church is like that of a husband's love for his wife.Again, you have ignored God's Word and replaced it with your own subjective thinking. No it is written from the BIBLICAL perspective. It is not based on my subjective experience or attitudes, but the BIBLE. YOUR statements are purely speculation on your part and not related to any outside source. Therefore it is YOU who is subjective and injecting personal BIAS into the argument. Sure, any one can do this. Satan is the accuser. He challenges God's character, and so do people operating under arrogance. I never said that. OUR eternal life and OUR relationship with him depends on OUR belief. Christ said this. What??? If god is not omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, sovereign, just, righteous, love, immutable, eternal life, and truth, what kind of god would he be??? God cannot violate his own character because it is his character that makes him God. Of course he cares enough to send his son to die for the sins of ((ALL)). This is grace. Who is saved by grace? Those who believe.You seem to think everyone will be saved. This is contrary to what the Bible tells us and God's character. Jesus said the path leading to eternal life is narrow and few find it, but the path leading to destruction is wide and many follow it.Again you have replaced your "humble" opinions with what God has told us in His Word.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-23-2004 12:47 PMThis message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-23-2004 12:48 PM

Thank you for admitting that this is your subjective opinion and not grounded in what the Bible says.Thank you for also giving me a personal encounter to serve as a good example of a religious person adding in their own subjectivity and becoming divorced from the religion's original beliefs. This discussion belongs in the radicalism in religion thread. Because YOU lean to the liberal left, you have shaped your Christian beliefs to fit your liberal ideals regardless of what the Christian scriptures say. WOW! I cannot imagine a more subjective statement!

Shraf, if I am frustrated, it is because you keep ignoring what I have said, do not rebut MY arguments, but keep repeating your own as if they get stronger every time you repeat them; and then you make me repeat mine because it sounds like you have compeltely ignored them.I explained to you several posts ago how God's Justice is maintained. You have not pointed out to me any logical fallicies in my arguments, but only repeated your own. GOD has communicated to us through His WORD which was written by MEN through the inspiration of the HOLY SPIRIT that his essence or character includes justice, righteousness, love, sovereignty, omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience, immutability, veracity, eternal life, etc.AGAIN you have ignored that I said we cannot know ((((((ALL)))))) of the whys. God tells us a great deal in his WORD. "Now we know IN PART, then we shall know FULLY even as we are fully known." I most certainly did not say nobody can know why God does anything. This is a lie. Can you not understand how we can know PART of something, but not all? I know SOME things about how my computer works, but not all. I know some things about how and why my car works, but not all. I know some things about how and why people work, but not all. I know some things about how and why God works, but not all.I'm sorry, but I've grown tired of these useless arguments.
Thank you for making me think a little. Good night.