Evolution is a basic, biological process

What I gather from your posts, Soplar, is that you are puzzled as to why there should be a Creationist movement in the first place, and you were wondering if there is any decent argument out there, other than references to the Bible, to explain why so many people do not believe in evolution.
I would say this:1. There is confusion in the popular mind between evolution and abiogenesis. There is plenty of evidence for evolution but only plausible ideas about abiogenesis.2. There is, IMVHO ("im my VERY humble opinion")a crucial part of evolution that is problematic: the evolution of "mind."

I am just wondering who or what has this "illusion"? Does the mind have an illusion of itself?Don't you have to have a mind to have an illusion?

It's not the evolutionary reason that puzzles me, Crashfrog: it's the process by which mind could have developed.

Answer my question in message #40, Crashfrog, and set my mind at ease.

What a fascinating idea.Consciousness was born in courtship.I think, RAZD, that you are a romantic.

This is some excellent info. for which I am grateful.However, I don't think it answers the most puzzling question. I understand your point, I think, about the "incredible capability" of these interconnections, but here is the issue:1. Either mentality is an illusion or it is real.2. If it is an illusion what is "having" this illusion?3. If it is not an illusion, then what is consciousness?

Crshfrog, how could the evolution of mind be simple and unproblematic if we don't know what the hell it is?

Good analogy, Crashfrog. The more I think about it the more I like it.Someone might assert that the mind does not really "exist" (in some sense), and someone might also say that gravity does not really "exist" in the sense of being a mysterious force emanating from a physical body, rather that it is not a "force" at all but a curve in space-time.Also, one might say we have a personal experience of gravity all the time if we choose to pay attention, and we also have a personal experience of mentality, without understanding either.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-04-2005 13:24 AMThis message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-04-2005 13:25 AM

The brain THINKS it created a mind but the brain is mistaken?The brain perceives (mistakenly) a mind?By the way: as regards whether this is off-topic. I think the topic of this thread is vague or various.I was trying to respond to Soplar's search for a decent argument against evolution. I thought that was his point. Wasn't he giving us a lot of reasons why evolution is obviously true (and explaining what it really was), and didn't he want to know why someone would think it is not true? Maybe I'm wrong.But if I'm right, then the evolution of mind is a controversial idea that he is looking for, an argument that is not just Bible references.

Yes, and there's also Hamlet with his "dreams" of the afterlife, "when we have shuffled off this mortal coil"--which keeps him from committing suicide. Not quite so meaningless!Yes, I have heard the holistic argument. It goes as follows: not any part of the brain is the mind; you can cut it up and never find it. But the whole thing creates it through certain "mindmakers" (different parts of the brain that I've been reading about or trying to read about). But how a neuron or a billion neuronic interactions can create a "thought" is to me a great mystery.

1.6, etc.I accept the following:
1. when the brain dies the mind dies.
2. the mind is dependent on the brain. If you do something to the brain, it affects the mind.
3. another point you did not bring up, I think, but somebody else did. Certain animals are conscious.These ideas are not relevant to the issue.My point is to say that "the mind is an illusion" is a contradiction of terms. The brain cannot have an "illusion."

Thanks. Some of my posts are foolish because I get impatient and don't think through what I want to say. Sometimes I have a bad habit of not reading other's messages closely enough--because I'm eager to say something. I don't know much about science--or the French I took.I'm offended by flippant or contemptuous comments directed against religious belief and the depth of history associated with it--the dark backward and abysm of time (the Shakespearean reference is for Sopler's enjoyment).I'm not an atheist. My mind is open on that score.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-04-2005 21:42 AM

The problem with some creationists is that they don't understand argument. The idea is to limit the assumptions to a minimum, and then go with what you got.Starting with Bible references will not work. There are too many assumptions involved.Why not discuss abiogenesis, carefully separating that from evolution?And then there's always "mind" of course.I have this recurring vison of the Godhead pumping mind-fuel, so to speak, into all creatures that are conscious (I think I got this from Teilhard de Chardin's book The Phenomenon of Man--but it was so long ago I might be mistaken). This is what makes them and keeps them conscious. Physicality cannot do that.Otherwise we would be mindless robots which the evolutionists are trying to make us out to be with their denial of mind and thus of free will and thus of anything worth living for. Why are they doing this? Because they think it's cool to put people down (they carefully exclude themselves, by implication, from the mindless robot category).I guess when we go to sleep He turns the faucet down to a mere drip (thus the phenomenon of dreams).Makes more sense than physicality somehow magically producing mentality.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-04-2005 23:35 AM

Another idea I had was that there was this mindstuff floating around in the universe--spun off from the Big Bang and, like dark matter, undetectable--which exists only potentially unless it can find a brain to activate it and make it "real."It's almost like a parasite. It feeds off the brain. Earth was a fertile breeding ground and it began to inhabit anything closely resembling a brain.It is, however, an oppressive substance, and you have to have a big brain to stand much of it. That's why cats have to sleep so much. They have a small brain and can only handle a few hours of consciousness a day.That's why creatures sleep (I got this idea from an essay I read called "Do Horses Gallop in their Sleep?"). You sleep if you are capable of consciousness.

And what exactly does this wishful thinking? The brain? Are you telling me that a physical object has illusions and engages in wishful thinking?How can that be?I am not quite sure why you bring up animals. Of course they might have minds. Why not? What's your point?This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-04-2005 23:50 AM