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Author Topic:   Evolution is a basic, biological process
Parasomnium
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Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 35 of 306 (173488)
01-03-2005 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by coffee_addict
12-31-2004 2:29 PM


What if the host dies only after the virus has prepared billions of replicas of itself in the cells of its victim. The bursting of the cells - i.e. the death of the host - to release the multitude of new viri might be just another step in the reproductive cycle of the virus. So the death of the host is not necessarily a bad thing from the virus' point of view.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

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 Message 11 by coffee_addict, posted 12-31-2004 2:29 PM coffee_addict has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by NosyNed, posted 01-03-2005 3:26 PM Parasomnium has replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 38 of 306 (173497)
01-03-2005 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by NosyNed
01-03-2005 3:26 PM


Re: Not so fast
Ned,
I found the following here:
quote:
How does natural selection effect virulence in parasites?
One idea:
Natural selection will usually act to reduce virulence. Parasites depend on their hosts, and if they kill their hosts they will soon be dead too: it has been argued therefore that parasites will evolve to keep their hosts alive.
An objection:
This idea is almost universally rejected by evolutionary biologists. Why? Because it is group selectionist. It is indeed in the long-term interest of a parasite species not to destroy the resource it lives off; but natural selection on individual parasites will favor those that reproduce themselves in the greatest numbers over those that restrain themselves in the interest of preserving their hosts. The short-term individual advantage of greater reproduction will usually outweigh any long-term group or species advantage of reproductive restraint.
It seems the jury is still out on that.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by NosyNed, posted 01-03-2005 3:26 PM NosyNed has not replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 97 of 306 (173978)
01-05-2005 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by robinrohan
01-04-2005 11:50 PM


About the illusion of consciousness
Robin,
If I may just have a stab at your problem:
If someone says that "consciousness is an illusion", then they don't necessarily mean that consciousness doesn't exist. They could also mean that consciousness isn't what it seems. The illusion might be in our perception of the nature of consciousness.
Most people have a strong feeling that their mind, their consciousness, or 'self', is some incorporeal entity, which they imagine to exist separate from the brain, yet somehow connected to it, and in control of it. We also have a hard time imagining not to exist as such after we die. We must somehow persist, is the feeling.
I think that is what the illusion is about. It might be that this feeling of incorporeality is some sort of by-product of being conscious. If someone were to ask a conscious being: "What is it like to be conscious?", they might answer: "Well, it's like being incorporeal". It's what it feels like to be conscious, you might say.
In fact, it's one of the few questions you can actually answer when asked what it's like to have a certain experience. When asked: "What is it like to smell the sea?", I think a lot of people would be lost for words to express this experience to someone else. But when asked about the experience of being conscious, the above might be a very adequate response, one which would convey the feeling remarkably well.
There is still the problem of how this feeling arises, of course. Well, how about the following scenario: The brain is full of representations of things in its environment. It might have a respresentation of an apple, for instance. This might take the form of a convolution of interacting electrochemical states, distributed over different parts of the brain. Some parts might represent the greenness of the apple, others its roundness, yet others perhaps the anticipation of its taste. And there might be a part responsible for integrating these states into a coherent representation on a higher level of abstraction - of the apple as a whole.
Now, the apple is really out there. The brain can look at it and map its representation of the apple to the physical thing itself, saying to itself: "This image of an apple is about that particular apple out there." The difficulty arises when the brain tries to map a representation of its own processes onto a real object, because there is no real object out there. A process is not an apple you can hold in your hand. It's something that happens, not something that is. But the brain may be so used to mapping that it tries nevertheless. Maybe what happens is that the brain recursively maps the representation of its own processess onto the very representation itself, thereby promoting the representation to object status. But the new object has no real world properties, such as a proper location the brain can pinpoint, or being made of stuff the brain can look at. And perhaps that is what creates this feeling of incorporeality.
As I said, it's just a stab, nothing more.
This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 01-05-2005 05:07 AM

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by robinrohan, posted 01-04-2005 11:50 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by robinrohan, posted 01-05-2005 1:47 PM Parasomnium has not replied
 Message 109 by robinrohan, posted 01-05-2005 5:21 PM Parasomnium has replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 106 of 306 (174143)
01-05-2005 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by 1.61803
01-05-2005 1:18 PM


Re: Oh, we're just amusing ourselves until an interesting, intelliRe: Reff Topic a
1618033988749894848204586834365 (or may I call you approximately 1.6?),
Have you been reading Brainstorms by Daniel Dennett, chapter 10?

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

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 Message 104 by 1.61803, posted 01-05-2005 1:18 PM 1.61803 has replied

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 Message 107 by 1.61803, posted 01-05-2005 2:52 PM Parasomnium has not replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 138 of 306 (174587)
01-07-2005 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Tal
01-07-2005 2:37 AM


Re: Die Hard Evolutionists
Tal writes:
My problem is that isntances in the evolutionary process are often spoken as if they were as sure a thing as gravity.
That's because they are. The mechanism of random mutation and natural selection has been observed. It's a well documented fact and it can be checked and verified by anybody who is willing to spend some time and effort to understand the evidence.
Merriam-Webster writes:
Main Entry: theory
Pronunciation: 'thE-&-rE, 'thi(-&)r-E
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ries
Etymology: Late Latin theoria, from Greek theOria, from theOrein
1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2 : abstract thought : SPECULATION
3 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art
4 a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances -- often used in the phrase in theory
5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena
6 a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption : CONJECTURE c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject
synonym see HYPOTHESIS
Look at the definitions above. When scientists mention "the theory of evolution", they have definitions 1, 3, 5 and 6c in mind for the word 'theory'. Creationists invariably only want to consider definitions 2, 4, 6a and 6b - if they are aware of the nuance at all. But it is not up to creationists to decide what scientists must mean when they say what they say.
But what puzzles me most is why you have no qualms where gravity is concerned, whereas evolution poses this problem for you. After all, you portray evolutionists as having the same tentativity towards both theories. And rightly so, all scientific knowledge is tentative.
But why pick on evolutionists then, and not attack 'gravitationists'? Is it perhaps because your religion tells a different story about how life came to be, but says nothing about gravity? I'll bet that if the Bible contained a chapter on gravity, in which God had stipulated that heavy objects fall faster than light objects, then the scientific theory of gravity would be subject to heavy shelling from the religious camp.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Tal, posted 01-07-2005 2:37 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Tal, posted 01-07-2005 4:37 AM Parasomnium has replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 142 of 306 (174594)
01-07-2005 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Tal
01-07-2005 4:37 AM


Re: Die Hard Evolutionists
Tal writes:
That's because they are.
Help me out here. Why is it then not called the law of evolution?
A theory becomes law when the theory is proven based on empirical data.
You've just proven my point about creationists' use of the term 'theory'. You have an outdated perception of how science works. Yes, we have the 'laws' of gravity, and the 'laws' of thermodynamics, but those terms are historic relics of the development of science. Since those terms were coined, scientific thinking has advanced and the science community has come to realize that all scientific knowledge is tentative. Scientific findings are no longer seen as immutable laws. But as long as they explain the data, they are accepted as true. And yes, they are called theories. But you don't get to decide what we mean by 'theories'.
Tal writes:
Gravity has such evidence. Evolution does not, or it would be a law.
Sigh.
{I wish I'd dare to use Dan Carrol's megaphone}
Evolution has masses of evidence. Don't just mindlessly repeat what countless other creationists have droned before you and what has been refuted time and again. Grab your chance at immortal fame and be the first creationist to actually look at the evidence and finally draw some sensible conclusions.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Tal, posted 01-07-2005 4:37 AM Tal has not replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 146 of 306 (174619)
01-07-2005 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by robinrohan
01-05-2005 5:21 PM


Re: About the illusion of consciousness
Hi Robin,
I liked our exchange about consciousness. I think your summary in your own words was pretty much the idea of what I wrote. I'm still thinking about how to express some more ideas I have about consciousness, having to do with awareness. But I think it's better to wait for Soplar to react, and then take the discussion about consciousness elsewhere, because it's not really the topic of this thread. Do you agree?

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by robinrohan, posted 01-05-2005 5:21 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by robinrohan, posted 01-07-2005 8:04 AM Parasomnium has replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 150 of 306 (174633)
01-07-2005 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by robinrohan
01-07-2005 8:04 AM


Re: About the illusion of consciousness
robinrohan writes:
Is the representation in the brain of an object we are looking at the same process as a representation of an object that we are remembering?
Although I can't be sure of course, I'd say it is probably a similar process, but very much less detailed. Look at your hand right now. You see every detail of the skin, don't you? Now close your eyes and try to remember what you just saw. Where are the details? Do you really see a picture of your hand in the same way you saw it when you really looked at it? Speaking for myself, I don't.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by robinrohan, posted 01-07-2005 8:04 AM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by RAZD, posted 01-07-2005 10:43 AM Parasomnium has replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 157 of 306 (174690)
01-07-2005 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by RAZD
01-07-2005 10:43 AM


Re: About the illusion of consciousness
RAZD writes:
When you observe your hand are you taking in all the details at once? or are you building up a picture with some details {remembered? fresher?} than others?
When I'm looking at my hand, I can see details of the skin. When I said "every detail of the skin", I didn't mean all of them at once, but every detail I choose to focus my eyes on. When I try to remember my hand, I can't shift my gaze all over the picture and look at the details, because there hardly is a coherent picture, let alone a detailed one. All I see in my mind's eye are fragments, and even they are fleeting.
But you are probably right, the brain can do some awkward tricks when it comes to vision. Research has shown that sometimes the brain inserts details that aren't even there. On the other hand, it can also leave out details that you'd say are hard to miss.
Funny thing, a brain.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by RAZD, posted 01-07-2005 10:43 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by RAZD, posted 01-07-2005 12:22 PM Parasomnium has not replied
 Message 161 by robinrohan, posted 01-07-2005 3:15 PM Parasomnium has replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 162 of 306 (174778)
01-07-2005 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by robinrohan
01-07-2005 3:15 PM


Re: About the illusion of consciousness
robinrohan writes:
My brain and I are not on good terms right now. I'm rather annoyed with my brain for lying to me.
Your brain is not to blame. It's you, remember? You haven't been yourself lately. Actually, you haven't been yourself ever.
Mindboggling, isn't it?

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by robinrohan, posted 01-07-2005 3:15 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by robinrohan, posted 01-07-2005 3:35 PM Parasomnium has replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 164 of 306 (174783)
01-07-2005 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by robinrohan
01-07-2005 3:35 PM


Re: About the illusion of consciousness
robinrohan writes:
What a dreadful idea. Might as well blow out brains out.
Brain begs to differ. Would be putting cart before horse, Brain says.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by robinrohan, posted 01-07-2005 3:35 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by robinrohan, posted 01-07-2005 4:34 PM Parasomnium has replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 166 of 306 (174804)
01-07-2005 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by robinrohan
01-07-2005 4:34 PM


Re: About the illusion of consciousness
robinrohan writes:
Well, let's have it, Para. I know you have a theory about the "self" up your sleeve. Give it to me straight. I can take it.
Not here, Robin. The clown doesn't approve. And it'll have to wait too, I wrote something about it but I, well, my brain left it at work.
Please have some patience. Maybe you could start a proper thread on it and collect some of what has already been said about it. Coming Monday I'll see what I can do.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by robinrohan, posted 01-07-2005 4:34 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by robinrohan, posted 01-07-2005 6:00 PM Parasomnium has replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 179 of 306 (175404)
01-10-2005 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Soplar
01-09-2005 12:55 AM


Re: : How Do we know what we know?
{This message has been moved here: Message 100}
This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 01-10-2005 10:23 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Soplar, posted 01-09-2005 12:55 AM Soplar has not replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 180 of 306 (175406)
01-10-2005 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by robinrohan
01-07-2005 6:00 PM


Re: About the illusion of consciousness
{This message has been moved here: Message 101.}
This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 01-10-2005 10:33 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by robinrohan, posted 01-07-2005 6:00 PM robinrohan has not replied

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