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iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5945 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Is it Rape or Not | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3628 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
The phrase you asked about, Doc, is a fundamentalist cliché that means 'correctly understanding the Bible.'
The wording is drawn from the King James translation of 2 Timothy 2.15:
quote: The cliché status comes from the popularity of this verse as memorization material for Sunday School children. In modern English (NRSV):
quote: The letters to Timothy and Titus, known as the pastoral epistles, contain detailed instructions about church organization and the role of clergy. The books are attributed to Paul but many scholars believe them to have been written after Paul's lifetime. ___ Edited by Archer Opterix, : Added material. Edited by Archer Opterix, : Accuracy. Archer All species are transitional.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3628 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
This passage describes abduction, certainly, and rape in the form of forced marriage. In mandating a structure for rape, though, this law has the interesting effect of discouraging it.
Rape in wartime is a function of the situation: chaos, lawlessness, mortal peril, sense of entitlement, impulse, and dehumanizing of the enemy. The law creates a structure in which any soldier inclined to commit rape has to delay gratification and go through a process that completely changes the context. The original appeal of the act would most often vanish. The law demands that the soldier take the woman back to his community. He is now obliged to introduce his intended victim to his family and friends, bring her into his home, and assume responsibility for her care and for any future offspring. The anonymity and chaos of war would now be a thing of the past. And before acting on his intentions he has to live with the thought-provoking and not-very-sexually-stimulating sight of his victim grieving with her head shaved. If obeyed, the law would have the effect of discouraging wartime rape. ___ Edited by Archer Opterix, : Error correction. Edited by Archer Opterix, : Clarity. Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo repair. Archer All species are transitional.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3628 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Catholic Scientist: I don’t think we should project our morality onto these ancient cultures and then use that to make god to look like a bad guy. A lot of bad shit happened, it’s the nature of reality, it must be necessary. Cultural factors obviously matter a great deal in understanding these passages. Forced marriage is rape by our definition. But how much choice did any woman in Middle Eastern culture have then, even in peacetime, about who and when she married? Even Israelite women were as likely as not to get a husband through a deal cut by their fathers with another family. To talk about 'forced marriage' in that context is redundant. It was simply marriage. To talk about socially approved marriage as rape--which did exist as a crime--would have made little sense to the ancients. In the context of its time the law may be seen as humane. The psychological astuteness of the Torah law on this point would make it a deterrant to wartime rape if the law was enforced. Enforcement, though, is another question entirely. How eager would the Israelites be to mete out tough penalties to a national hero for breaking a law intended to protect foreign women at the inconvenience of Israelite men? This is to discuss these laws as social solutions to real-life problems. I have no interest here in making God 'look' bad or good. Any PR problems God has are his to solve. PaulK and Doc Potato raise an important point. Talking about social realities in ancient times doesn't get you very far when you are asserting that these laws came straight from God. God creates realities. God thus bears responibility for the content of the laws and the fact that slavery, Israelite wars of conquest, enemies and infidels, wartime rape, and war even exist. We have the right to expect something special. His laws, and the actions of his chosen people, would surely embody the principle of treating another as you would be treated. The fact that these texts reveal an ancient society pretty much like any other--only more monotheistic in its belief system--poses a problem for anyone who insists that society's belief system makes it special. What is special? ___ Edited by Archer Opterix, : Correction. Archer All species are transitional.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3628 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Couldn't an argument be made that God did not create the specific reality you are discussing? A theist could seemingly show that God created Eden. That was his intention. He gave humans a choice, and they chose the consequent reality (the Fall). By the time of Deuteronomy God was constructing laws to fit the realities humans created for themselves. Well, sure, that is the argument. If God's law looks imperfect it's only because after Eden everything is a contingency plan to accommodate an imperfect reality. God has fallen back, as it were, to Plan B.
One could ask why he doesn't just change the reality we make, or why he allowed us choice as he had to know what we'd do anyway... but that gets into a discussion of whether a "good" God allows free will or not. That's the question I understand PaulK and Doc to be asking. It's a good one. God is still responsible for the reality even if one puts the immediate blame elsewhere. Doing that just pushes God's responsibility back one level. The question still remains as to why he permits it. Even given a fallen reality brought about through free will, what sense is there in God making a law that compromises with it? The law, if from God, exists mainly to reveal God's character and invite his people to measure up. Why lower the standard right out of the gate? If you're a deity who 'hates divorce,' for example, why make a law that allows it? Why not make a law saying marriage is for life that decrees capital punishment for any individual who doesn't deliver? It's not as if related offenses aren't already being punished that way. And if you're God, why not make people--'your' people, anyway--more inclined to be monogamous in the first place? ___ Archer All species are transitional.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3628 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
holmes: This may raise other questions, but lets say God desires to "flip a coin" as it were. Take a chance to see what another intelligence would do. Clearly omniscience could also mean seeing all possible paths from various decisions, rather than just a seeing a single path that is reality. This dovetails nicely with aspects of chaos theory. God creates a structure, but it's a complex system rather than a linear equation. Any of our theologians exploring this? Archer All species are transitional.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3628 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
His omnipotence doesn't make him responsible, even if he could have prevented something bad. Job would disagree. Job says 'God is not just. I'm suffering and I didn't do anything wrong.' Job's friends say 'Who are you to question God? If you suffer you must deserve it.' Job insists on his innocence and says he does not deserve this treatment from God. God shows up and takes full responsibility--not just for Job but for everything imaginable. He tells Job's friends they have not spoken the truth about him as Job has. He orders them to make amends. It doesn't do to cite Satan's appearance in the preamble to the book of Job to let God off the hook. Job's God does not ask to be let off the hook. Satan is never mentioned once the situation is set up. He's just a device to get the story going--forgotten as soon as his role is done. From then on it's Job and God. Job holds God accountable. And in response God doesn't say 'Job, you're wrong to blame me. It's all Satan's fault. See, we had this bet--' God accepts responsibility and puts Job's sufferings in larger perspective. Job knows what God acknowledges. Power is responsibility. Not to act is still to act. ____ Archer All species are transitional.
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