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Author Topic:   Is it Rape or Not
mick
Member (Idle past 5016 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 146 of 260 (360628)
11-02-2006 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by PaulK
11-02-2006 2:14 AM


Re: I see no rape at all here
PaulK writes:
Deuteronomy makes it worse in that it authorises forced marriage of captive women. The women are not given any option of refusal. And once "married" they are fair game to be raped by their husbands. By endorsing marriage in these circumstances rape is not only expected but condoned.
Indeed, the final line of your quote from Deutronomy makes it clear that the woman has been "dishonored":
Deutronomy writes:
If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.
Now since being previously married isn't dishonorable, and divorce was permitted in those times (with the man's permission), then we might ask where the dishonor has come from unless it was from the forced marriage and rape?
In Deutronomy 22 we get:
quote:
if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, 27 for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. [c] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
This quote makes it pretty clear that it is ownership of the woman that is the important thing, according to the OT. If a woman is raped when she is pledged to be married to somebody else, it is a capital sin. But if she is an unbetrothed virgin it's only a matter of 50 shekels - paid to her father, not to the actual victim! Oh, and the victim is forced to marry her rapist - as a penalty to the rapist!
Edited by mick, : Provide reason for edit here
Edited by mick, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by PaulK, posted 11-02-2006 2:14 AM PaulK has not replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 5016 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 152 of 260 (360637)
11-02-2006 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Faith
11-02-2006 2:22 AM


Re: I see no rape at all here
faith writes:
You are talking about men in modern civilization, who are confronted with situations absolutely outside their realm of experience. How can you even begin to compare this with the tribal lives of people 3500 years ago?
Hi faith,
I think this is rather the whole point - that God's moral code as described by the old testament is that of a broze age tyrannical warlord from 3500 years ago. You seem happy with this, and indeed suggest that we take a relativist view of it, as though God's moral code is context-dependent, and that 3500 years ago he (or his proxies, I guess) behaved like a warlord because "that's the way things were done then".
Mick

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Faith, posted 11-02-2006 2:22 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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mick
Member (Idle past 5016 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 191 of 260 (360924)
11-02-2006 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by New Cat's Eye
11-02-2006 3:52 PM


Hi Catholic Scientist
CS writes:
These are laws for an ancient culture. They seem to be an improvement to not having these laws. They could have been given to the people by god. They look very harsh when taken in the context of our culture, though.
This strikes me as a very odd line of thinking. Was it beyond God's power to require his people to have a liberal democracy, or a notion of human rights and decency? You seem to be saying that God was limited in the content of his commands by the historical context of the people he was commandng - but I was under the impression that God was limitless.
He could have said, NO KILLING OR RAPING OF CHILDREN, YOU NAUGHTY ISREALITES. The fact that he didn't is something of a failure on God's part, isn't it?
Or is it that the atheists are holding God to too high a standard? This is the position that you have faith seem to be adopting here.
Edited by mick, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-02-2006 3:52 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Faith, posted 11-02-2006 7:11 PM mick has not replied
 Message 196 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-03-2006 11:35 AM mick has not replied

  
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