Islam does not hate christianity

No one is trying to say that Hamas or other militants are angels but saying that the Israeli Army is an honorable institution of self-defense is a about as valid as saying Hitler was really a nice guy at heart.Are olive trees part of a terrorist plot:
BBC NEWS | Business | Palestinian olive crop hit by unrestLittle boys make great human shields for the IDF:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel faces human shield claim When you can't kill em, piss on em and throw em out of a two story building. IDF honor at its best:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israeli police accused of abuseSource for crash's example. Apparrently dead is not dead enough when it comes to 12 year old little girls:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel trial over slain Gaza girlAnd apparently this type of behavior is OKAY with Israeli investigators. Palestinians, hide your 12 year old daughters:
BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Gaza girl death officer clearedSeems like children and masked men with guns look exactly the same through the scope of an IDF gun:
BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Israeli shell kills seven in GazaGreat example of a "precision" strike against Hamas militants. Our motto, fire in the general direction and someone will likely pay the price. In this case, how about a 7 year old girl:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israeli fire 'kills girl' in GazaThe IDF being called on it by their own people:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israeli unit banned over killing Trigger happy, the dangers of trying to drive to the hospital, also that parked car was a menace to society:
BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Palestinians killed in Gaza raidsWatchout for those dangerous wheelchair bound militants:
BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Israelis kill man in wheelchair When tank shells hit children, blame it on the militants. Oh wait, they don't have tanks:
BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Children killed in Gaza explosion2000 people have their homes destroyed. Must of all been terrorist caches:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Gaza raids 'left 2,000 homeless' "Daddy, Daddy, I want to hide"
BBC NEWS | Middle East | 'Little hope' for Rafah's children UN and US expresses disapproval over IDF civilian killings:
BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Israel rebuked over Gaza killings If you are a male, surrender or we will destroy your house:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel seeks mass Gaza surrender By now, does anyone reading this remember "All the Israeli military actions are against terrorists":
BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Israel's Gaza mission kills 20 Starting to see a pattern here. Throwing rocks = Gunmen. "Precision" attacks. Bulldozing houses makes people hate you less. It is so simple.:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israeli army kills Gaza protester Seems like there is justice if the victim is a 16 year old boy. 12 year old girls no. 16 year old boys yes.
BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Soldier jailed for 'reckless' killing Farming makes you a militant:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel 'probed Palestinian death'

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

i.e. you claim that Israel HAS to severely punish the relatives of suicide bombers even though they could be entirely innocent ? Why ?Don't you understand that by giving these people genuine grievances the Israeli government is encouraging Palestinian Arabs to join the terrorist organsiations resisting Isrealit rule ? At least some of the demolitions had some clear security benefit - but demolishing the house where a suicide bomber used to live does not.

The official (or is it the unofficial?) land policy for Israel has been hotly-disputed for years. Articles in internal newspapers and books by resident Israeli authors have pointed out the inhumanity of government actions. Even rabbis have acted in defence of Arab settlements as the link shows
http://www.peacecouncil.org/israel_news.htmlEvidence of a long-standing effort to remove Palestinian Arabs from villages can be found here
One Land, Two Systems - Mediamatic Some excerpts Food for thought, Faith

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Could have fooled me and just about the rest of the real world. The bullets that kill Palestinian children come from Israeli guns.

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No no, lets be clear about this: they come from AMERICAN guns paid for by American taxes."Throughout the world, on any given day, a man, woman or child is likely to be displaced, tortured, killed or 'disappeared', at the hands of governments or armed political groups. More often than not, the United States shares the blame."
- Amnesty International, 1996 from "Human Rights and USA Security Assistance"

Right, all those American made Uzis we send in our annual shipments as part of the International Jewish Conspiracy Accord.

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Maybe if you lived in a tiny country surrounded by hostile armies sympathetic to these bombers, you'd look at things differenly.

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Well I have lived under exactly those circumstances and I do NOT see things differently.

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srael, in order to survive MUST take these measures to keep the Jehadists of a territory which still refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist

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Israel is a Western colony, an outpost planted in the midst of Arab lands. It has no right to exist. It is a terrorist state.

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It's like if New Jersy were being threatened by every surrounding state of extinction by terrorism because the other states wanted them all (Jersians) wiped out and citizens from those other states were constantly coming and going into N Jersey.

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No, its not. Its like the Jersians are suddenly displaced and an alien population planted on top of them; the Jersians turned into second class citizens and menial servants, and what little land and livelihoiod they have left to them systematically plundered - while all the while an even greater power funds and supports that tyranny.

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Right, all those American made Uzis we send in our annual shipments as part of the International Jewish Conspiracy Accord.

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When was the last time you actually saw an Israeli soldier carrying an Uzi? You mostly see them carrying M-16's.Oh an by the way, perhaps you can point out to me where the Israeli plants manufacturing Cobra and Apache helicopters are, or Maverick and Hellfire missiles, or were these a gift from Jehovah or what?Israel apparenbtly has the largest fleet of F-16 fighter-bombers outside the US, standing at 200, with a further 102 on order from Lockheed-Martin. This of course is being paid for by the US taxpayer to the tune of over $134 billion since 1949. And of course, Israel recieves further aid, fully 50% of the US Foreign Military Financing, which provides grants to foreign governments for the purchase of American military hardware, services, and training. And even better, Israel enjoys a unique status in US law, being the only country on whose behalf citizens can make tax-deductable donations in the US, to the tune of $1.5 billion/year. And, in 2001 Israel applied for and was granted 800 million in supplementary aid to cover its withdrawal from South Lebanon - so Israel was paid for obeying international law.Israel is a western colony, subsidised, condoned and supported by the USA - and for which the USa can rightly be held accountable."I am a black South African, and if I were to change the names, a description of what is happening in the Gaza Strip and West Bank could describe events in South Africa." - Archbishop Desmond TutuThis message has been edited by contracycle, 02-25-2005 04:59 AM

Look like an M-16 to you? About those f-16s (Amnesty International)

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In July 2002 the UK government announced that it would allow the export of UK-made components for US-made F16 aircraft destined for Israel.

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and

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In November 2002 there were reports that a German company was supplying transmission systems for the new Israeli Merkava tanks, despite a German embargo on arms sales to Israel.

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And Hamas is still using those Chinese knockoffs of AK-47s. So I guess the US, China, UK, and Germany are responsible for the problems between Israel and Palestine.Who keeps trying to broker peace deals between the two groups? Oh that's right, the US. Not a surprise when we've done as much or more for half of Europe, Russia, the Balkans, the ME, and Asia.And those EU made tractors the Israelis use to bulldoze the olive orchards? The EU ought to be ashamed.But you raise a really solid, cogent point: if the US just stopped selling weapons to Israel, no other country in the world (certainly not the French, Russians, or Chinese) would ever sell them arms, and then all the problems there would simply evaporate.Way to add to the discussion contracycle.

Hi, Faith, from David ben Gurion`a official biographer

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Look like an M-16 to you?

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No, it looks like the 5.56-mm chambered Galil, a design based on the AK-47 but adapted for NATO ammunation in a combined project between Israel and South Africa, who use this particular folding-stock version under the name of R-5.The Israeli Special Forces Database reports that:

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The M16A2 family is the new generation of the M16A1 family now in service in the IDF.

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The IDF already procured large quantities of the new weapons, using the U.S. FMS funds.

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The weapons will be issued to all IDF infantry oriented units, including both special and conventional units, starting with the NAHAL infantry brigade and the SF units.
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Currently there are few M16A3, M16A4 and few thousands M4A1 already in service. The goal is that up to 2003 all infantry oriented units including both special and conventional forces will be equipped with the new carbine. At the same time all the old CAR15 will be shifted to the reserve replacing the M16A1 the reserve has for long time complained above.

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And Hamas is still using those Chinese knockoffs of AK-47s. So I guess the US, China, UK, and Germany are responsible for the problems between Israel and Palestine.

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Well, considering that the European states here are all themselves ex-Colonial powers, how surprising is this? And there are indeed export guarantee credits offered by BritGov to Israel. Yes, European governments are also culpable - but European governments do not go around loudly asserting that only one side here has the moral high ground, and does not subsidise the Israeli economy or arms purchases to anything like the same degree, and also provide economic aide to the Palestinians.I can see nothing wrong with the provisions of weapons to an occupied people attempting to attain liberty. As they say in the classics: "AK-47: bringing freedom to a country near you".

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Who keeps trying to broker peace deals between the two groups? Oh that's right, the US.

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Thats good weed there, man. The US has systematically sabotaged all negotiated efforts by anyone else by withdrawing approval - and seeing as Israel is on the US's leash, that scuppers them. That is precisely why the domestic pressure on Blair is to get him use his alleged influence with the US to START getting the US engaged with a Middle Eastern peace process, becuase so far the US has only backed Israeli positions, and indeed continues to do so. The US is an active impediment to a solution of the Palestinian problem. After all, look at all those sales buffing up the economy and providing jobs, right?

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Not a surprise when we've done as much or more for half of Europe, Russia, the Balkans, the ME, and Asia.

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VERY good weed. As Amnesty points out however, the facts give the lie to your empty nationalist rhetoric: there is a systematic correlation between US intervention and abuses of Human Rights.

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And those EU made tractors the Israelis use to bulldoze the olive orchards? The EU ought to be ashamed.

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Yes you are quite right it should. And big parts of it are. But the armoured bulldozers to which you refer were manufactured by the American Caterpillar Corporation (yes, anyone out there wearing cats, you are supporting terrorism).

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Jewish Voice for Peace and its partner organizations -- the U.S. Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation, SUSTAIN (Stop U.S. Tax Aid to Israel Now), and the Center for Economic and Social Rights -- launched a variety of efforts to pressure the company, including Internet activism, shareholder resolutions, and protests. They announced that today they were asking over 30,000 sympathetic Americans to send a letter to Caterpillar demanding that it halt sales to the Israeli military. Jewish Voice for Peace is also developing a shareholder resolution that it intends to introduce for a vote at Caterpillar's 2004 stockholders meeting.

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But you raise a really solid, cogent point: if the US just stopped selling weapons to Israel, no other country in the world (certainly not the French, Russians, or Chinese) would ever sell them arms, and then all the problems there would simply evaporate.

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Haha. Once again American moralism finds European practicality hard to deal with. OK then - surely Bush's complaint against Europe wanting to remove the arms embargo against China is also ridiculous? The European states are extremely cynical in regards there use of arms sales, and export subsidies, no doubt about it - but at least they are not HYPOCRITICAL, simulataneously selling weapons and masquerading as dishinterested honest brokers only trying to do the Right Thing. Well OK, Bliar does.If you think it is acceptable to fund the murder of civilians, even if only on this basis, then you must accept your culpability in the murder of those civilians. If you want clean hands and the moral high ground, then yes, pull out and let someone less moral than yourself fill the gap. But as long as you do it, you cannot complain that you are unfairly labelled.

Remember 'Desdamona', she had this idea that all palestinians were evil muslims but changed her tune when this was pointed out to her: I wonder what Faith makes of the way Israel treat(ed) Christians in Palestine.A double standard anyone?Brian.

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I wonder what Faith makes of the way Israel treat(ed) Christians in Palestine.

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A double standard anyone?

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Oh man, too much has happened here since last night for me to catch up quickly. I'll have to catch up later too because I don't have much time now either.I'm aware that Christians are not welcome in Israel. After all, we want to convert them. But I don't expect other countries to follow the American pattern. I allow that Israel has a right to be a Jewish state. Often Palestinian Christians are Christian more by habit than practice and politically anti-Israel -- meaning sympathize with the terrorists -- so this isn't as obvious an indictment of Israel as it sounds. I also think a Muslim state has the right to have their own laws too, but in the case of Saudi Arabia and Muslim countries in Indonesia they outright persecute and murder the Christians and other religious groups who were there before them (and would do the same to the Jews if there were any Jews left there) and basic human rights are an international concern.But also, I simply do not trust the reports that come out of Arab, Muslim or even European sources any more. I don't trust Amnesty International, I don't trust the BBC. I think their bias is obvious.Edited to add "sympathize with the terrorists"This message has been edited by Faith, 02-25-2005 11:46 AM

I know you Israel partisans see enemies at all sides, but I've never understood why you expect the BBC or anybody else to care enough about Israel to have a bias in the first place. I understand why Christians like you have a bee in your bonnet over Israel; why should we believe anybody else gives enough of a damn to oppose you?

Add to that list I wrote before, questioning my integrity as a Christian.Also, questioning the integrity of other Christians you have never even met. Great job you are doing here Faith.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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But also, I simply do not trust the reports that come out of Arab, Muslim or even European sources any more. I don't trust Amnesty International, I don't trust the BBC. I think their bias is obvious.

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I know you Israel partisans see enemies at all sides, but I've never understood why you expect the BBC or anybody else to care enough about Israel to have a bias in the first place. I understand why Christians like you have a bee in your bonnet over Israel; why should we believe anybody else gives enough of a damn to oppose you?

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Wrong questions. After seeing the slanted reporting we judge them biased. Their motives are another topic.