Atheism Examined

quote:

---

Because that's not how people arrive at conclusions.

---

Funny. That is precisely the conclusion I came to when I grew out of belief in the supernatural and came to rest at Agnosticism/weak Atheism.

quote:

---

If absolute certainty is necessary for you to arrive at conclusions, then yes, that's the best that you can say.

---

But isn't the above statement the opposite of "arriving at a conclusion"?

quote:

---

But nobody lives like that.

---

I do, and so do you.There are scores of things you don't know about, or know only a little bit about.About those two categories of things, you have no opinion, since you don't have enough information to form an opinion.This is true for everybody.

quote:

---

We arrive at conclusions based on relatively uncertain information all the time - it would be paralyzing to operate in any other way.

---

No, that's not true.But, if we are honest, we intellectually navigate situations and concepts about which we are unable to conclude anything. We don't know. We may never know. And we have to leave it at that.I, nator, don't know if God exists or not.Please explain to me how this paralyzes me.

quote:

---

By and large, atheists believe that life is purposeless.

---

No, those are 'nihilists'.What many Atheists don't believe is that life's purpose has an external, "woo-woo" source.Edited by nator, : No reason given.

quote:

---

By asking why Dawkins pursues, with a particular ardor, things that don't exist?

---

Dawkins doesn't persue things that don't exist.Dawkins counters theists and thesism, both of which exist.

quote:

---

Why does everything in life need to be examined via the scientific method? Can't we trust each other anymore?
If I knew you and ordinarily thought you to be rational and sane, and one day you reported that you had what you thought to be an unverifiable experience (UFO or something)why would I be wrong to trust you pending further validation? Why would I assume you were suddenly daft?

---

I'll quote Feynman here:"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."Phat, most people don't use the scientific method to examine things, because they don't know what it is or how to use it. It takes education and a lot of practice to do it well.That's why Bush was able to convince people that Saddam Hussein was involved in the WTC bombings, and why people believe in astrology and alien visitation and "get-rich quick in real estate" claims, and on and on and on.Just because someone is "rational and sane" doesn't mean they are able to apply the scientific method successfuly to stuff that happens to them in their own lives. That takes a certain amount of courage, as well, since most people like feeling right and don't actually want to know the truth if it means they were wrong.

quote:

---

I think that you are a dyed in the wool fundy who is playing the 'I used to be an atheist card' because you think that this somehow means that Christianity is clearly true. I mean wow, you were an atheist and now you are a Xians, it must be a true.

---

I think he was the sort of Atheist who, while he claims to not believe in God, is actually a "lapsed believer" who is defiant of or angry at God.Sort of like a rebellious teenager or young adult who cuts his parents out of his life and pretends they don't exist but who never actually believes that he never had parents.So, he never really went all the way to Atheism.

I already told him that he was confusing atheists with nihilists, but I was ignored.

quote:

---

If nemesis or anyone else claims that they have been atheist, and you deny this, to say that they were simply lapsed Christians...have you ruled out the possibility that you are lapsed at this moment as well?

---

Sure, I guess. But I don't think so. Anything's possible, I suppose. (sorry, that's the Agnostic in me coming out )

quote:

---

What if you went back to christianity? Would you say that you have no idea what an atheist is?

---

No.The difference is that the way Juggs is describing Atheism is nothing, and I mean nothing, like my Atheism or the Atheism of any Athiest I know personally or through this board.It would be like if somebody who used to be Catholic claiming that Catholics worship Mary as a goddess. You'd just chuckle and think, "Wow, this person didn't ever really understand Catholicism."See what I mean?

quote:

---

You may assume that you won't go back, but that is hardly critical. What is honest is to say that if you ever feel a reason to go back you will. Are you basing your judgement of others on the simple fact that you are STILL atheist?

---

No.I'm basing it on the fact that Juggs is misrepresenting all Atheists in all the typical, cliched Christian Fundy ways that we've heard a million times.His criticisms of Atheism are pretty close to the, "If humans evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys around?" ignorant anti-evolutionary biology crowd.

quote:

---

If you dont believe you dont sweat the past, the mistakes, etc. I wish I could be that way, and not regret my past. It is weird.

---

Wow.What makes you think that Atheists don't have regrets?We regret the pain we cause other people. We just don't fear eternal reprisal.

quote:

---

If I stopped believing in God, I wouldnt have regrets like I do.

---

Wow, I say again.Are you saying that if you stopped believing in god that you would become amoral and your conscience would disappear?If true, that is a truly terrifying thought.But it isn't true. You would still have all of those internalized social rules and you would be just as moral as you ever were, maybe more so.What you would become, probably, is less likely to feel fear and apprehension for your mistakes. You would be less judgemental and more forgiving and kind towards yourself and others. You would become more connected to the people around you. You might even come to know peace and contentment instead of being preoccupied with your own inadequacies and supposed unworthiness.At least, that's what happened to me when I left the Church.

quote:

---

That is where people think atheists dont have morals. They think that life would be sweet and painfree without God.

---

Life got much better for me without God, it's true.But it is far from pain-free. I just don't invent as many artificial reasons to torture myself now that I'm an non-believer. And nobody can impose their ideas of ways I should mentally flaggelate myself on me anymore, either.

quote:

---

It may surprise you but I'm a fairly spiritual person.

---

I feel this way about myself, too, but I rarely talk to anybody else about it.

quote:

---

I find myself wondering, and this is probably so not OT, whether the spirituality that you speak of is not based on some version of belief in the unseen. Many spiritualities could easily turn into pantheism, for example, or something similar.

---

No, I don't think so.I think my spirituality comes from the wonder and amazement I feel when I contemplate or experience the wonders of nature or a strong emotional response to something. I suppose it also comes from the simultaneous feelings of insignificance and specialness in light of my meagre attempts to comprehend the the vastness of the universe.

quote:

---

I would say that I agree with you altogether, except I am shady on that last bit about studying the brain alone for the answer.

---

Er, so what do you suggest we study to get the answer, if not the brain?

quote:

---

I actually think it's a good thing to keep around as well. I mentioned briefly in a reply to Tazmanian Devil that Religion can be very useful to people on the terms of "a source of comfort and companionship" ...and even strength. These, I would not discount. These are powerful supports that every person should be entitled too. And if some people can only find them in Religion, then I'm glad Religion is around to provide that for them.

​

My main concern is when Religion starts meddling in things it really shouldn't be meddling in. School curriculums and social morals come to mind here.

​

Basically, I think it's about time Relgion got the talking to it deserves: "Know your role". Get out of politics. Get out of education. Put your efforts into those places where they are supposed to be... helping people.

---

Well then, Buddhism and Unitarianism for all!

quote:

---

That is why it is great to live in a country where Atheist, Christian, Muslim, Hindu and any other religion can air their beliefs without fear of reprisals from the government, so far.

---

You think that Muslims and Athiests don't legitimately fear reprisals from our governement?The first Bush said that he didn't think that Atheists should be considered patriots or citizens.I need not explain the fear that Muslims have.

quote:

---

But just because you claim to be a Christian does not mean you are.

---

Who decides, if not the person making the claim?

quote:

---

The disciples were first called little Christos at Antioch.

​

They were living a life like Christ.

---

Who gets to decide if they are living a life like Christ?