EvC Forum: Atheism Examined

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Topic: Atheism Examined

Omnivorous

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From: Adirondackia

Joined: 07-21-2005

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Message 73 of 300 (389237)
03-11-2007 11:21 PM

Reply to: Message 71 by New Cat's Eye
03-11-2007 10:59 PM

CS writes:

While I was growing up, the definition of "athiesm" was the belief that God didn't exist. Today, for me, that is referred to as "Strong Atheism". This position is as illogical as theism in that we cannot exactly KNOW that god exists or not. I happen to believe that he does. Atheists happen to believe that he doesn't. But to say, as a matter of fact, that he does or does not exist is equally illogical.

I've heard this argument many times, and it still puzzles me. You seem to be sliding into an act of equivocation, where an atheist stating his belief that God does not exist somehow becomes a claim of fact. Further, it is the theist making extraordinary claims about realms beyond our direct knowledge: is it equally illogical to believe and not to believe in ghosts?

Further, it is not illogical to base a belief on something less than irrefutable proof: we do it all the time, maybe even most of the time. In jurisprudence and in science, we make decisions about what to believe based on the preponderance of evidence. Very few of our beliefs are supported by irrefutable proof.

It seems to me that the theist and the atheist are in quite different positions here: the theist establishes premises based on experience, privileged evidence not replicable by disinterested others; the atheist, in contrast, considers both the lack of replicable, positive evidence for the existence of gods as well as the steadily mounting negative evidence of natural explanations for phenomena once ascribed to gods.

Any conclusion can be logically valid once the necessary premises are accepted. Rather, the issue is what evidence supports the divergent premises. If the contest is one of well-supported premises, the atheist wins hands down.

Theists are ill-advised to go tilting at atheists on the field of evidence and logic.

Real things always push back.
-William James

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 71 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-11-2007 10:59 PM		New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 75 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-12-2007 12:00 AM		Omnivorous has replied

Omnivorous

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Posts: 3992

From: Adirondackia

Joined: 07-21-2005

Member Rating: 7.5

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Message 78 of 300 (389245)
03-12-2007 12:24 AM

Reply to: Message 75 by New Cat's Eye
03-12-2007 12:00 AM

CS writes:

Omni writes:

Further, it is not illogical to base a belief on something less than irrefutable proof:

Yes, it is "ilogical". But that is beside the point.

You are mistaken on both counts. Logic is a GIGO machine, a sausage grinder that can produce great links or pure baloney. Expecting it to deliver certainty is a profound error.

Do you not agree that "Strong Atheism" is illogical?

I think your strong v. weak distinction muddies the water around what 'belief' means.

But, no, even taking your term at face value, 'strong' atheism is not illogical.

Real things always push back.
-William James

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Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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This message is a reply to:
	Message 75 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-12-2007 12:00 AM		New Cat's Eye has replied

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	Message 81 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-12-2007 12:36 AM		Omnivorous has not replied

Omnivorous

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Posts: 3992

From: Adirondackia

Joined: 07-21-2005

Member Rating: 7.5

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Message 122 of 300 (389330)
03-12-2007 7:52 PM

Reply to: Message 121 by Hyroglyphx
03-12-2007 7:07 PM

Re: Clarifying positions

NJ writes:

All nihilists are atheists, but not all atheists are nihilists... Is that the gist?

Kind of like all Floridians are Americans, but not all Americans are Floridians?

Hmm. How about all Appalachian snake handlers are Christians, but not all Christians are Appalachian snake handlers?

I tried to retain your geographic flavor while refocusing on relevant beliefs.

P.S.
"Don't be a coward, show some faith:
Praise the Lord and pass the snakes!"
-Hot Tuna

Real things always push back.
-William James

Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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This message is a reply to:
	Message 121 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-12-2007 7:07 PM		Hyroglyphx has not replied

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