Women and Religion - Does it anger you?

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2. If the husband exercised this high love for the wife, there will be no abuse, no taking advantage, no selfishness and no cruelty.
3. There is no need for a woman to fear submission to this kind of a husband.

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To hear you describe it, a Christian woman should want nothing more from a marriage than for her husband to not abuse her.You actually miss the point about the whole "submission" issue, and why it is so objectionable, buz.For one adult to submit their will to another adult as a condition of their romantic relationship trivializes and demeans the adult who is submitting.It basically puts the woman into a child's role and the male into a parental role. How humiliating for a woman to be treated as a child by her husband, and how icky for that husband to view his adult wife as childlike, needing to be instructed and led around like she isn't an independent adult person.

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5. There is good reason for this chain of command given in the Bible. No social unit, including the family can function smoothly having two presiding heads, i.e. two presidents.

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Um, what about the many thousands of businesses that have two or more equal partners? The one I work for was named "The Coolest Small Company in America" by INC. magazine, and it was founded by two partners over 22 years ago.The fact is, many social units run just fine without any leaders at all, or with multiple leaders, or with everyone in the group taking turns leading part of the time (like the early Gnostic Christians ran their worship). It is a desire be in control of everything and everyone that leads to your style of higherarchical thinking.My marriage is a partnership of equals, and has no leaders. We negotiate what we want through mutual love and respect for each other.It's a bit more work than your model, but I think we both get a great deal out of the relationship.Certainly, fear of being abused, treated cruelly, or being taken advantage of has never entered my head at any point in my relationship. My husband would never treat someone he considered an equal that way.

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The total chain of command given in the NT is God the father, head of Christ, Christ head of the man and man the head of the woman.
6. This setup does not work where either the man or the woman do not observe the Biblical rules.

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Like I said, marriage with a "chain of command" is hardly a recipe for a healthy relationship. It makes the man the parent of the woman, which puts her in a childlike position.What adult wants to be treated as a child, and what mature adult wants a romantic partner he ultimately doesn't respect as an equal adult?Eew.

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Imo, that's why Muslims are often known to treat their wives unkindly,

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Ha! How many good, Christian men have beaten up their wives in the Bible Belt alone in the last 100 years, buz? How many do you think?

So, Mike, do you not not accept the letters of Paul as the inspired word of God?

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The ladies are quite good at gossiping (better at it than men), thought thats why no apostles were ladies,

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Um, no, there were no female apostles because women were considered property in Biblical times. Kinda like cattle or other livestock.

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and that only men are supposed to be pastors, I suppose though all there gossiping has kinda liberlised the churches(not a good thing), perhaps the ladies should be silent in the churches, and ask there husband if she has a question, etc...

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Yeah. Women should just shut up and do what they are told, if they know what's good for them.

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P.S. Its about order too, like in the home who is the boss, the children, the wife, the husband. The bible makes it clear the man is the head of the house, spare the rod and spoil the child, in love, etc...

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Yes, physical violence and intimidation is generally the best way to get ones way, isn't it?

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I heard though where nuns in a catholic school maintained order by slapping fingers with a ruler(bet it was sanctioned by the priest)but it worked, it registered in the brain and maintained order.

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Pain and intimidation and fear are really conducive to learning, I agree.

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All this gooey stuff, sounds good, but nothing like a deserved spanking given in love, to register in junior's brain, to respect the husbands authority.

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I was spanked and smacked upside the head as a child, and I hated the parent who did it.White hot, seething hatred, every time.Eventually, when I was big enough, I hit back, and then I wasn't hit any longer.

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When the child becomes boss, its chaos.

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The only way an adult can figure out to teach a child how to behave is to hit them?

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When the wife respect's the husbands authority, the child respects his authority too(Dad can be scarry),

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So, the wife and child should be scared of the man?

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should not children go to bed by 8 PM so the husband can have quiet times with his wife without junior ranting, about me myself and I. It appears at times junior is the boss, and the wife should get in line with the husband, unfortunately the social services will likely not see spankings as appropriate discipline (they want to disrupt the family),

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So, the only way a supposedly intelligent adult can think of to teach a child how to behave is through hitting it?I mean, I managed to train several dogs without hitting them.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-20-2004]

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I just see the woman being the nurturer, its not right for the man to be an effeminate(soft), nor abusers of themselves with mankind(sodomite).

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That's nice.Who made you the arbiter of how the genders should behave?

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in America, we have just a few liberal judges ruling in favor of this abomination, in spite of federal law,

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Huh? What federal law makes homosexuality illegal?

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so our enemies being judges has caused the Congress of the United States to need to draft an amendment to protect the sanctity of marriage, from judges overstepping their powers in favor of this abomination, in spite of federal law, etc...

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Why should your religious views dictate our government's laws?Last time I checked, we had a secualr government, not a religious government, in the US.Heve things changed?

Hey, I was perfectly cheerful...No, really.Thanks moose, I'll know where to go next time.

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The most content, happy and fulfilled women I know recognize and honor the Bibllical family setup. Why?

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How many women do you know inimately enough that they would confide their true feelings about how fulfilled they are in their marriage, buz? Be honest, now.Also, how many self-avowed feminist women or men do you know on a personal basis?Just because you casually observe people in your immediate social group doesn't mean you know what most women think, or even what the women you know really think. There's a lot of "making nice for appearance sake" that happens in public.

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1. Because rather than this off and on bickering about how things should be done,

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What makes you think there is automatically "on and off bickering" in an equal partnership?

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there's more relatively tensionless discussion in which the loving husband considers and listens to the wishes of the wife.The workable leadership role of that loving husband serves well when a final decision must be made when an agreement can't be reached.

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So, the wife can present her wishes and the husband can consider them, but ultimately, the man can do what he wants, right?That's a parent/child relationship, buz, not an adult relationship.

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2. Generally speaking, men are designed for that leadership role. That's why by and large, men make better generals, presidents and CEOs. Their God given lower authoritative voice and physical strength as well as the metal makeup better fit the husband for this role.

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Lower voices make men better leaders? What kind of silliness is that?Buz, culturally, men have usually been leaders, which is why we associate lower voices with leaders. It's just a physical difference that we associate with males.Men can't hear sounds as high as those women can hear because the bones in their ears are too large to detect them. Is this a sign that they are better leaders, too?Also, are you saying that being able to physically intimidate and dominate others automatically makes males better leaders?Does that mean that a large, strong woman with a low voice would be a good leader, and a small, weak man with a high voice would be a poor leader? What about a strong, big man with a high voice, like Mike Tyson?What about lots of body hair? Is that a sign of the ability to lead?

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Men are, for the most part better at decision making.

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That is a completely bald, unsupported assertion that can be ignored.

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3. By and large it is the male, both in humans and other creatures that leads and provides,

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Not true at all. There are many species of organisms where the males provide nothing but genetic material and the female provides everything for the offspring. No male presence, let alone leadership.The leader of wild horse herds is the Alpha female; she decides where they will graze and drink. The females protect the offspring from predators. I think many herd animals have similar Alpha female leaders, like elephants.Lemurs also have a matriarchal society.

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and the one which initiates the romantic and mating process.

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What does this have to do with humans' ability to lead?Maybe you don't realize this, but these days female humans are just as likely to persue a man and initiate sex as males are.

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4. The children are better off when there os one head of the family and less bikering for them to endure from their parents.

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Why do you think that there is bickering in a relationship of equals?Negotiation, buz, remember? That's what grown ups do when they have a disagreement and they need to work it out equitably and respectfully.If the husband can ultimately always win every disagreement, then he is effectively the parent of the wife. He can't possibly respect her if he always has the power to dominate her will. The wife can't possibly respect herself if her will is ultimately not hers.

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5. The divorce rate among Biblical (I say Biblical) run homes would be lower where both recognize one as head and final authority.

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Then why are conservative christians the most likely to divorce, and athiests and agnostics and catholics the least likely to get divorced?

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Please note that I am not speaking for Christians in general because a relatively small number of CHristians go by the Bible on this leadership role matter.

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Wouldn't conservative christians, as a group, be more likely to do things this way? If true, then why do they get divorced at a rate greater than agnostics and atheists?

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This, imo, the rate of Christian divorces is also quite high.

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You are just fudging here. The truth is, buz, no matter how you try to wiggle away from it, is that the more conservative a Christian you are, and therefore the more likely you are to follow this marriage model, them more likely it is that your marriage will fail.Maybe that's because women these days want to be treated as a full human being.

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You have a flawed understanding about the Biblical chain of headship. No place in the Bible is the wife lowered to child status nor in homes which go by the Bible. Your reasoning would imply that the vice president and treasurer of a company are treated like children. That's just not the case at all. As was so with Abraham and Sarah thousands of years ago, there is discussion and compromising dialog between husband and wife when decisions are made.

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The vice president of a company is not in a lifelong romantic relationship with the CEO of the company, most of the time. Also, the CEO's leadership position is not considered to be ordained by God. The board of directors can still can the CEO and make the VP the leader.If you want to make analogies between business relationships and romantic ones, the better model of a healthy marriage of adults is the partnership.If the Bible says that God is the head of the man, and that man is the head of the woman, then doesn't that strongly imply that women are in a childlike, subordinate position in the higherarchy?If a man can ultimately tell his wife what to do, she is in a childlike, subordinate position. How can it be otherwise?

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Relatively few businesses operate via partnerships and many of these have more or less silent partners or one who has the greater leadership role. Relatively few partnerships are as successful and workable without more stress than a normal chain of leadership.

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I disagree.I think that stress in a business comes from unclear expectations and from not having to tools or skills needed to do one's job.Since our management model has gotten a great deal of attention because it is so successful, we conduct seminars on the subject that lots of people have attended.This kind of management style is not for everyone, and it's very different from the traditional higherarchy. It is more difficult at first and requires managers to check their power trips and egos at the door, but the proof is in the pudding. Our turnover rate is half the industry average.

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Most advise against them. There are, of course, exceptions, as also is the case in marriages.

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I have a friend who's wife is quite a bit more intelligent than he so he leaves more decision making to her. Nevertheless, she, being also a Biblical Christian honors his leadership role to the greatest extent possible.

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So, you are saying that they share leadership?Even though she's so much smarter, what he says ultimately goes?That's kind of a dumb arrangement, isn't it?

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You know, of course, more than I about how that's working out and how many heated arguments there are.

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There aren't very many heated arguments in my marriage.However, just because there may not be any heated arguments in a marriage at all doesn't mean the marriage is healthy. How many "traditional" marriages of 20 or 30 years dissolve because the wife, who subsumed her will to her husbands' "for the sake of the children" couldn't take it any more and packed her bags after the kids moved out?

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I have numerous friends and aquaintences who operate this way, but more often in these setups it's the woman who manages the money and ends up the leader with the wimpy male the one begging like a child for a few bucks to buy the tool or whatever. I've been behind the counter in the retail business for over forty years and I speak from experience on this.

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Do you see what you just said buz?? Begging like a CHILD.A CHILD.When a marriage is not an equal partnership of adults where wants and needs are negotiated out of mutual love and respect, a parent/child relationship is inevitable, as you just illustrated.You DO understand this situation completely, since you decribed a perfect example, except you apparently think it's OK for a woman to be treated this way but not a man.

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Women respect and admire men who assume their God given leadership role and often women despise the wimpy man of the house.

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I respect men who respect me and don't try to lead or control me.I don't need to be led/controlled, because I am an adult.I despise men who are too insecure to be in a relationship with a real, adult woman. A man that always has to feel in charge of his wife is an impotent man in many ways, indeed.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-22-2004]

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Buz: I have numerous friends and aquaintences who operate this way, but more often in these setups it's the woman who manages the money and ends up the leader with the wimpy male the one begging like a child for a few bucks to buy the tool or whatever. I've been behind the counter in the retail business for over forty years and I speak from experience on this.

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Do you see what you just said buz?? Begging like a CHILD.A CHILD.YOU said the man was reduced to being CHILDLIKE.When a marriage is not an equal partnership of adults where wants and needs are negotiated out of mutual love and respect, a parent/child relationship is inevitable, as you just illustrated.You DO understand this situation completely, since you decribed a perfect example, except you apparently think it's OK for a woman to be treated this way but it's incredibly distateful to you when it happens to a man.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-22-2004]

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Buz, I agree that these posts are getting too long to do a point-by-point reply to each one.Since you declined to address the very most important part of my last reply to you, I will cut and paste it below. I may also address other parts of your reply, and re-address other important parts of my reply post that you chose not to address, at a later time.It really is the crux of the matter; that you deny that your "biblical" marriage model doesn't, in fact, put the woman in a subservient, childlike position.When I asked, "If the Bible says that God is the head of the man, and that man is the head of the woman, then doesn't that strongly imply that women are in a childlike, subordinate position in the higherarchy?", you didn't answer.I will await your response.************************* Do you see what you just said buz?? Begging like a CHILD.A CHILD.YOU said the man was reduced to being CHILDLIKE.When a marriage is not an equal partnership of adults where wants and needs are negotiated out of mutual love and respect, a parent/child relationship is inevitable, as you just illustrated.You DO understand this situation completely, since you decribed a perfect example, except you apparently think it's OK for a woman to be treated this way but it's incredibly distateful to you when it happens to a man.It is distasteful when it happens to an adult, male OR female.

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Maybe some of the old proscriptions weren't so bad. We started letting women wear pants and look what happened: Hillary Clinton!

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Even worse...Margaret Thatcher, Prime Minister of Great Britain!President Chandrika Bandaranaike Kumarantunga, President of Sri Lanka!Mary McAleese, President of Ireland!Mary Robinson, President of Ireland!President Vaira Vike-Freiberga, of Latvia!President Tarja Halonen of Finland!Executive President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo, of The Philippines!Executive President Megawati Sukarnoputri, of Indonesia!President Vigds Finnbogadttir, of Iceland!President Agatha Barbara, of Malta!Executive President Maria Corazon Sumulong Cojuangco Aquino, of The Phillipines!Executive President Violeta Barrios de Chamorro, of Nicaragua!Executive President Janet Jagan, of Guyana!Federal President Ruth Dreifuss, Switzerland![This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-30-2004]

ROTFLMAO!!!

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bumpety bump bump bump...

My main beef is with buzsaw's insistance that a marriage needs a male leader to be successful, and that this male leader/female follower relationship is not a parent/child relationship rather than a relationship between adults.His claim is that equal partnerships actually do not work as well as "true Biblical" marriages. He also conveniently hand waves away the statistics showing that the more strictly fundamentalist one is, the more likely you are to divorce. He claims, without any evidence to support it (and in a wonderfully circular fashion), that the people who call themselves fundamentalist christians in the study can't really be following Biblical marriage ideals, because if they were, they wouldn't get divorced!This message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-15-2004 12:18 PM

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Critical thinkers and skeptics don't create answers just to manage their anxiety--Karla McLaren