Is man inherently good or inherently evil?

Depends upon if you agree with Peter or with Paul.Was that a Biblical contradiction I just spotted....?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

prophex responds to me:

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Was that a Biblical contradiction I just spotted....?

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Where?

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Weren't you paying attention? The question is whether or not humans are inherently good or inherently evil. The Bible contradicts itself. Peter says one thing, Paul says another.That is, after all, what I meant when I said, "Depends upon if you agree with Peter or with Paul." Is that not clear that I am stating that the two have contradictory opinions about the matter?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

prophex writes:

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Otherwise people would fit into the animal kingdom quite nicely.

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I'm confused, if humans aren't part of Animalia, what kingdom would they fit into? They're certainly not Plantae, Fungi, Protista, or Monera.Are you suggesting humans are minerals?If humans aren't animals, what are they?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

prophex avoids my question:

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We are set apart from the rest

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Then where do they fit? Plantae? Fungi? Monera? Protista?Are you claiming humans are minerals?If humans aren't animals, what are they?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

prophex responds to me:

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I want you to provide the actual reference guy.

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You mean you haven't read your own holy book?1 Peter 1:17: And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:1:18: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;1:19: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:Compare this to Paul:Romans 3:20: Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.3:21: But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;3:22: Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:3:23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.3:27: Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.3:28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.Notice you pick up two contradictions, but they're essentially variations of the same problem: What is the nature of man. One is saying we're born that way, another is saying we have to do it. One says we are saved by faith. The other says we are saved by deeds.Shall I go on? Peter is a big believer in the pre-destination schtick. Kings rule by divine right (1 Peter 2:17). God wants some people to suffer (1 Peter 4:19) He even goes so far as to directly contradict Jesus (1 Peter 2:18 compared to Matthew 4:10, 23:10).Paul, who has a big bug up his ass about pretty much everything, still thinks that you can get out of it if only you straighten up and fly right.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

dpardo responds to me:

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How are these in contradiction to each other?

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Is salvation by faith or works?Paul says faith. Peter says works.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

prophex responds to me:

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You mean you haven't read your own holy book?

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Please, asking for a specific reference that you were talking about yet not revealing does not imply that I do not read the bible.

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When someone claims to be a follower of a specific religion, to be unaware of the well-documented contradictions of its primary piece of literature is a bit...well...shocking.It would be akin to someone who claims to be a native speaker of English not knowing that the verb "to be" is an irregular verb.

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I also noticed how living a life of sin yet claiming to be saved by the Christ is wrong

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That's not what Paul says. You can live a life of sin but if you repent and turn to god at the last minute, you're saved. What gets you into heave, according to Paul, is what you believe and not what you do.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

prophex avoids my question:

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Although similarities between animals like DNA (as schraf said) exist, an unreasonable conclusion is humans are also animals.

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Then where do they fit? Plantae? Fungi? Protista? Monera?Are you claiming humans are minerals?If humans aren't animals, what are they?

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If you haven't realized the differences aside from physicalities, then check them out.

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Um, did you ever pause to think that I have checked them out? Why do you think I keep asking you if humans aren't animals, then what are they?They're obviously not minerals, so they're some form of life. Well, there are only five Kingdoms of life: Animalia, Plantae, Fungi, Protista, and Monera. Are you saying humans are some kind of plant? Fungus? Single-celled organism?If humans aren't animals, what are they?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Phatboy responds to me:

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My point is that all of the Bible is written for us (Gentile Believers or Jewish Believers)

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Incorrect.Ask a Judaism what the sin of Sodom was and see if sexuality ever gets mentioned. Compare this with Christianity and then try to explain the difference.The Old Testament was written by Jews for Jews. The Christians came along, having come out of Judaism, and stole the work, completely ignored the intent of the narrative, and tried to shoehorn in their Messiah into the "prophecies," completely ignoring the fact that Jesus didn't fulfill them.This "Judeo-Christian" attitude is nothing more than a mythical figment created by the Eisenhower administration in an attempt to solidify religious support for his administration in the aftermath of World War II.

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Some parts were written to Jews and some parts were written to Gentiles.

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Yeah...Old Testament and New Testament.The problem is that the New Testament seems to think that the Old Testament was written with Jesus in mind.And it wasn't.

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Paul and Peter have many more similarities than differences

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Irrelevant.They differ on the most important point: How does one achieve salvation?When one person tells you to be nice or your won't go to heaven and the other says you are nice because you're going to heaven, that's a tremendous difference. Despite the fact that both of them are extolling the niceties of being nice (oy!) they have opposing views of the point of it all.

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Peter, a Jew, still clung to the old system. He thought that to be a believer properly, one must become Jewish first..(works) Paul said that whosoever believes has a way in...(Grace)

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Considering that Jesus said that not one jot, not one tittle of the Law would be changed until all be fulfilled, which one do you think Jesus would have gone with?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

dpardo responds to me:

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Can you please post the verse(s) that you believe supports what you say about Peter?

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I already did. Message 39Weren't you paying attention?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

dpardo resonds to Coragyps:

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Peter is not referring to salvation in this passage.

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(*blink!*)You did not just say that, did you?What do you think that god is doing as he "judgeth acording to every man's work"? I noticed you cut out my entire quote:1 Peter 1:17: And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:1:18: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;1:19: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:What on earth is the point of bringing up the blood of Christ if not to point out that Peter is talking about salvation? Just to bring the point home, Peter goes on and talks about how the end of the world is about to happen Real Soon Now :1:20: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,1:21: Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.1:22: Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:1:23: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.1:24: For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:1:25: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.How can you possibly sit there and with a straight face claim that Peter isn't talking about salvation? For crying out loud, the entire point of 1 Peter is how to go about achieving salvation! Have you read it?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

CHRIS PORTEUS jr responds to me:

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Why can't it be both?

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If they had meant to say both, they would have said both. They didn't say both, so they didn't mean both.And the two are essentially incompatible. The point behind belief is that you can be as nasty a person as you like so long as you have your change of heart before you die. I do not question the sincerity of the change of heart, but it means that what you do is irrelevant so long as you believe when all is said and done.Compare this to the other claim that your actions are what you will be judged by. It's a poor sidestep to claim that by doing good, you are following the will of god even if you don't know it. Put it to the test: Will an atheist go to heaven if he does good works?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Phatboy writes:

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We learn how to be deceitful and dishonest, however.

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No, that seems to be inborn. If you watch the development of children, they learn how to lie and cheat and steal all on their own. Pretty much every parent can tell you of the first time they heard their child lie right to their faces.And they do it for the reason we would expect: To avoid punishment.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

CHRIS PORTEUS jr avoids my question:

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Put it to the test: Will an atheist go to heaven if he does good works?

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I by no means can judge anyone but I know it's good to know God.

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I thought the Bible told you how. It's a very simple question: Is salvation by faith or by works? If it's by works, then the "good" atheist will get into heaven. If it's by faith, then he won't.

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But have you ever met a perfect person?

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That's avoiding the question.Will an atheist go to heaven if he does good works?Suppose I were to say no, there is no such thing as a perfect person. Then everybody is in the same position and we're back at the same question which you haven't answered:Will an atheist go to heaven if he does good works?

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Even a righteous atheist sins right?

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Irrelevant. If everybody sins, then everybody is equal. So answer the question:Will an atheist go to heaven if he does good works?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Phatboy responds to me:

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It is not as simple as Old vs New Testaments.

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Of course. Judaism is more than just the Torah just as Catholicism is more than just the Bible.But you are missing the entire point: To say that a text suddenly means something it was never understood to mean is disingenuous at best. You are suggesting that Jews don't know the theological implications of their own holy work.

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Just because a few of the T.B.N. Christians rant and rave about stuff does not make them mainstream in Christian thought and belief.

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(*chuckle*)Go read the NIV translation of the Bible and then come back to me.

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The Old Testament was written by Jews for Jews, yet all of the stories were not about Jews.

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True, but to imply that it was written with Christ and Christians in mind is just as fallacious.

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Will an atheist go to heaven if he does good works?

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Not any more than a Christian.

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So salvation is by faith.That contradicts Peter, though.

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In other words, you have to believe along with your "good works".

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Misquote. Why didn't you include the stuff that came before?1 Peter 1:17: And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:1:18: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;1:19: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:1:20: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,1:21: Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.As 1 Peter 1:17 clearly points out, god judges without favoring people. You get your faith by doing good works and through those good works, you gain heaven. You are redeemed by the act of Jesus, not simply the belief in god. If belief were all that was required, then Jews would get to heaven since they believe.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!