Is man inherently good or inherently evil?

dpardo responds to me:

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Can you please post the verse(s) that you believe supports what you say about Peter?

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I already did. Message 39Weren't you paying attention?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

dpardo resonds to Coragyps:

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Peter is not referring to salvation in this passage.

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(*blink!*)You did not just say that, did you?What do you think that god is doing as he "judgeth acording to every man's work"? I noticed you cut out my entire quote:1 Peter 1:17: And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:1:18: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;1:19: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:What on earth is the point of bringing up the blood of Christ if not to point out that Peter is talking about salvation? Just to bring the point home, Peter goes on and talks about how the end of the world is about to happen Real Soon Now :1:20: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,1:21: Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.1:22: Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:1:23: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.1:24: For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:1:25: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.How can you possibly sit there and with a straight face claim that Peter isn't talking about salvation? For crying out loud, the entire point of 1 Peter is how to go about achieving salvation! Have you read it?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

CHRIS PORTEUS jr responds to me:

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Why can't it be both?

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If they had meant to say both, they would have said both. They didn't say both, so they didn't mean both.And the two are essentially incompatible. The point behind belief is that you can be as nasty a person as you like so long as you have your change of heart before you die. I do not question the sincerity of the change of heart, but it means that what you do is irrelevant so long as you believe when all is said and done.Compare this to the other claim that your actions are what you will be judged by. It's a poor sidestep to claim that by doing good, you are following the will of god even if you don't know it. Put it to the test: Will an atheist go to heaven if he does good works?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Yup.But I imagine he could get a by if he asked.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Phatboy writes:

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We learn how to be deceitful and dishonest, however.

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No, that seems to be inborn. If you watch the development of children, they learn how to lie and cheat and steal all on their own. Pretty much every parent can tell you of the first time they heard their child lie right to their faces.And they do it for the reason we would expect: To avoid punishment.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

If you check post #48 he recanted:

They go hand in hand. Preachers speak of this all the time.

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Put it to the test: Will an atheist go to heaven if he does good works?

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I by no means can judge anyone but I know it's good to know God.But have you ever met a perfect person?Even a righteous atheist sins right?This message has been edited by CHRIS PORTEUS jr, 09-19-2004 08:23 PM

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-porcelain

CHRIS PORTEUS jr avoids my question:

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Put it to the test: Will an atheist go to heaven if he does good works?

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I by no means can judge anyone but I know it's good to know God.

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I thought the Bible told you how. It's a very simple question: Is salvation by faith or by works? If it's by works, then the "good" atheist will get into heaven. If it's by faith, then he won't.

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But have you ever met a perfect person?

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That's avoiding the question.Will an atheist go to heaven if he does good works?Suppose I were to say no, there is no such thing as a perfect person. Then everybody is in the same position and we're back at the same question which you haven't answered:Will an atheist go to heaven if he does good works?

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Even a righteous atheist sins right?

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Irrelevant. If everybody sins, then everybody is equal. So answer the question:Will an atheist go to heaven if he does good works?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Rrhain...you may have a lot of smarts in a lot of areas, but you need to study the meaning of dispensational theology. It is not as simple as Old vs New Testaments. I have asked my Christian mentors and they told me that the sin of Sodom was not sexuality before you brought it up. Just because a few of the T.B.N. Christians rant and rave about stuff does not make them mainstream in Christian thought and belief.
Page not found | Berean Bible Society
The Old Testament was written by Jews for Jews, yet all of the stories were not about Jews.The builders of the Tower of Babel were all pagans. The Gospels were written for everyone, but for Jews first.
Jesus said Himself that He came only for the lost sheep of Israel.
Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, whereas Peter was saying that everyone had to convert to Judaism as well as becoming Christian.
http://www.biblicalanswers.com Not any more than a Christian. Ask your kid to stand at the foot of the stairs and tell him that if he finds a way to get to the top without touching the railing or the stairs, you will buy him an ice cream. There is no way that he can do it, except to ask you to carry him back up. So it is with Jesus Christ. No amount of good works can substitute for the sinless life of Gods Son who died for all of us.
Good works show evidence of Gods Spirit operating within an individual, and I cannot judge whether an atheist will get a chance to accept Jesus when he dies but I do know this: A relativistic belief system will not substitute for the absolute truth of Gods sacrifice once for all time. In other words, you have to believe along with your "good works".This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-20-2004 05:12 AMThis message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-20-2004 11:45 AM

My my my.Genesis was compipled by the Jews for the Jews during the timeperiod of the 2 Kings, as was most of the Torah. It is an allegorial story. It was
actually a rip off from the Ugartic creation myth that the pheonicians had, as indeed much of the Torah is. Some of the Torah was 'inspired'
by Sumeritian sources (look at the legend of sargon, and see how the
first 7 lines compares with the birth of Moses.)

So says who? You are suggesting that Judaism "ripped off" other cultural myths? How preposterous! The Pagan cultures were full of idolatry whereas the Jews had their own culture of ideas rather than stone idols. They still have that culture, today. Where is Sumeria? The reason that Jewish History is less accessable than the history of other cultures is because Jews relied on ideas and thought to carry their culture rather than stone idols. The other cultures can be reconstructed based on all of the "things" that they had, but these ancient objects are all that are left of those people whereas Judaism thrives today...since ideas cannot be squashed. To say that Judaism ripped off its identity from dead cultures is ridiculous! Anytime that I read from sources that say "B.C.E." rather than B.C., I know that they are secular scholars who chase after knowledge without any hint of the definition of truth. To them, truth is relative and is based on speculations from other archeologists who want to make a name for themselves. You may assert that early Church sources had a "hidden agenda" yet you would never see that many secular historians also have an agenda. They deliberately suppress any connection of spiritual truths and attempt to construct theories devoid of any such reference. This is not any less biased, however, for many of these people merely want to get noticed in their own little circle of (mostly atheist) scholars. So how is Genesis such a ripoff? Note the Tower of Babel: This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-20-2004 11:46 AM

This verse: is the one I am claiming is not referencing salvation.These verses, I believe, do refer to salvation:

What a lot of old crap - I'm getting sick of those tired tired old chestnuts. 1.Your evidence of "deliberate" suppression? - your personal fantasies don't count. I know one group who have had 100s of years of practice and it ain't scientists... (and I can back that with 100s of examples) Your asseration is that most scholars (historians at least) are atheist. I would like you to back or retract that claim as per the rules of this forum.

OK, I'll retract it. I get a little too irritated sometimes. The reason that I get irritated, however, is because the Biblical evidence and the early Church councils are often ridiculed and attacked for being politically motivated. While the early church was not perfect by any means, the accuracy of our information is as good as any.

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Everyone is equal

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My point exactly.
So everyone is a sinner, so everyone needs forgiveness from the Most High,the Christ.

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-porcelain