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Author
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Topic: Is man inherently good or inherently evil?
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NosyNed
Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: 04-04-2003
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Message 151 of 271 (150371)
10-16-2004 9:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 150 by Rrhain
10-16-2004 9:15 PM
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QED
Kind settles it doesn't it? I'll be interested to see what others have to say.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 150 by Rrhain, posted 10-16-2004 9:15 PM | | Rrhain has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 155 by riVeRraT, posted 10-24-2004 4:04 PM | | NosyNed has not replied |
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CK
Member (Idle past 4157 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: 07-04-2004
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Message 152 of 271 (150458)
10-17-2004 6:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 150 by Rrhain
10-16-2004 9:15 PM
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Re: NIV translation
How odd is that - "by changing the sense and some of the language used, it is a more accurate record..." em...eh..
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 150 by Rrhain, posted 10-16-2004 9:15 PM | | Rrhain has not replied |
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vortel64
Inactive Member
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Message 153 of 271 (151853)
10-22-2004 1:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 152 by CK
10-17-2004 6:40 AM
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In regards to the debate of whether we get into heaven based upon faith or by works, the answer would be both. I quote James 2:22-26 NKJV - 22-Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23-And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24-You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25-Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26-For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. As this passage clearly states, the two operate hand in hand. BTW the preceding verses talk about Abrahams decision to sacrifice his son on the alter to God, in accordance to Gods command, holding onto that promise delivered by God that Abraham would be "the father of many nations." By preforming the seemingly contradictory action of sacrificing his only son, Abraham proved by his actions(works) that he had faith in God to provide a way out, therefore fulfilling his(God's) promise. Of course, God came through in the end, providing a ram as a sacrifice instead of Isaac. The same concept applies to this debate. To achieve salvation, you need to both a) have faith in God that he will save you and b) follow his commands laid out in the Bible (ie. Ten commandments, etc.) This constitutes both faith and works, not just one or the other. Therefore, the statement that Peter and Paul are contradicting each other is false. They are both in fact correct.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 152 by CK, posted 10-17-2004 6:40 AM | | CK has not replied |
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: 05-09-2004
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Message 154 of 271 (152551)
10-24-2004 3:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 39 by Rrhain
09-15-2004 3:29 AM
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I have a headache right now, maybe thats why I do not see your point, butI think both are saying the same thing. How exactly is Peter saying we do sins? How exactly is Paul saying that deeds buy us a ticket rice a roni street?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 39 by Rrhain, posted 09-15-2004 3:29 AM | | Rrhain has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 159 by Rrhain, posted 10-25-2004 3:12 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: 05-09-2004
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Message 155 of 271 (152552)
10-24-2004 4:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 151 by NosyNed
10-16-2004 9:24 PM
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Re: QED
Is it possible they were trying to take into account of how differently we speak now as compared to then?
Then a literal translation might be mis-understood?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 151 by NosyNed, posted 10-16-2004 9:24 PM | | NosyNed has not replied |
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: 05-09-2004
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Message 156 of 271 (152553)
10-24-2004 4:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 134 by jar
10-07-2004 2:34 PM
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1 Peter NIV 5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter KJV 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. ??
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 134 by jar, posted 10-07-2004 2:34 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 157 by jar, posted 10-24-2004 4:44 PM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 157 of 271 (152559)
10-24-2004 4:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 156 by riVeRraT
10-24-2004 4:07 PM
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You and several others here love to pull out just one line. But 1 st. Peter 1 is not all that long, only 25 lines. Read the whole thing. As Rrhain and I have been saying, 1 st. Peter 1 clearly says it is by works, not only by Faith. Here is all of 1 st. Peter 1 for folk to read.
1: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2: Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4: To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5: Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6: Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10: Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12: Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13: Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14: As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16: Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17: And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21: Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22: Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24: For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you The important part of 1 st. Peter is that it is re-enforcing the move from the Theocratic Priestly society to a more egalitarian one. It is saying that your rank, station, wealth or position will get you nowhere. It is saying that how you lead your life, how you behave, what you do will count far more than your wealth or who you are.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 156 by riVeRraT, posted 10-24-2004 4:07 PM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: 05-09-2004
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Message 158 of 271 (152639)
10-25-2004 12:25 AM
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Reply to: Message 157 by jar
10-24-2004 4:44 PM
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He is not sayiong by works alone. He is saying that by faith you will do works, that God will see. You cannot do those works of the Lord unless you have the faith. So it is not by works alone that will get you into heaven. In order to be with Christ, you must be in Christ. You cannot believe in him, or have faith in him, and not do his works. It would be like not believing in him. I have found that in my life, once baptized with the Holy Spirit, there is no way I could go on without doing works for him, and helping others in his name for his glory. I also feel born again, a new creation in Gods eyes, he spoke to me in my heart and thoughts, and told me so. It is my desire to dedicate my life to his works. I think this expresses what Peter is trying to say. I find it so amazing that I feel the same way he did 2000 years later, without actually reading 1 Peter, before I felt it. Our God is an unchanging God. 
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 157 by jar, posted 10-24-2004 4:44 PM | | jar has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 160 by Rrhain, posted 10-25-2004 3:19 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Message 159 of 271 (152681)
10-25-2004 3:12 AM
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Reply to: Message 154 by riVeRraT
10-24-2004 3:59 PM
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riVeRraT responds to me:
quote:
How exactly is Peter saying we do sins?
By action, not thought. Just noticing an attractive person and thinking that it might be nice to spend the evening doing naughty things isn't a sin if you don't do anything.
quote:
How exactly is Paul saying that deeds buy us a ticket rice a roni street?
What do you think "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" means? Edited to fix the quotation I was using This message has been edited by Rrhain, 10-25-2004 02:15 AM
Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 154 by riVeRraT, posted 10-24-2004 3:59 PM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Message 160 of 271 (152682)
10-25-2004 3:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 158 by riVeRraT
10-25-2004 12:25 AM
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riVeRraT writes:
quote:
He is not sayiong by works alone.
But this is in direct contrast to Paul that says faith is all you need. What do you think "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" means?
quote:
You cannot do those works of the Lord unless you have the faith.
Sure you can. You just said that anybody who isn't Christian cannot do good works.
Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 158 by riVeRraT, posted 10-25-2004 12:25 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: 05-09-2004
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Message 161 of 271 (152739)
10-25-2004 9:52 AM
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Reply to: Message 159 by Rrhain
10-25-2004 3:12 AM
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That he is justified by FAITH, not by the law.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 159 by Rrhain, posted 10-25-2004 3:12 AM | | Rrhain has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 163 by Rrhain, posted 10-27-2004 3:02 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: 05-09-2004
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Message 162 of 271 (152740)
10-25-2004 9:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 160 by Rrhain
10-25-2004 3:19 AM
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I think Peter is saying that God will judge you by your works, not accept you by your works. 2 different things.
Sure you can. You just said that anybody who isn't Christian cannot do good works.
That is a mistake you are making. If you do good works, that is good, and God sees it, but it is not the work of the Lord unless you say it is. When I do good works, I do it for him, not for my own personal gain. *edit* Thats not to say I do not enjoy helping others, because I do. I get satisfaction knowing I am doing the work of the Lord, and he is using me to accomplish these things. I now do things that I previously didn't do before. This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 10-25-2004 08:57 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 160 by Rrhain, posted 10-25-2004 3:19 AM | | Rrhain has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 164 by Rrhain, posted 10-27-2004 3:10 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Message 163 of 271 (153281)
10-27-2004 3:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 161 by riVeRraT
10-25-2004 9:52 AM
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riVeRraT responds to me:
quote:
quote:
What do you think "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" means?
That he is justified by FAITH, not by the law.
Tautology. Could you please answer the question without repeating the question as a statement. In other words, what do you think the word "justified" means? What do you think the phrase "deeds of the law" means?
Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 161 by riVeRraT, posted 10-25-2004 9:52 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Message 164 of 271 (153286)
10-27-2004 3:10 AM
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Reply to: Message 162 by riVeRraT
10-25-2004 9:55 AM
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riVeRraT responds to me:
quote:
I think Peter is saying that God will judge you by your works, not accept you by your works. 2 different things.
(*blink!*) You did not just say that, did you? How is judging someone by his works different than accepting him by his works? Is not acceptance an act of judgement? What would cause god not to accept you because of your works? Is that not judgement?
quote:
quote:
You just said that anybody who isn't Christian cannot do good works.
That is a mistake you are making. If you do good works, that is good, and God sees it, but it is not the work of the Lord unless you say it is.
Weren't you just arguing that things are good because god says so? Therefore, if someone does good things, then they by your own definition are doing the work of the lord. You can't have it both ways. If they are doing good work, they are doing the work of the lord. And yet, they have no faith. So what will god do with them? Will god follow Peter who says that deeds rather than faith is the way to salvation or will god follow Paul who says that it is faith, not works?
quote:
When I do good works, I do it for him, not for my own personal gain.
Congratulations. You just said that everybody who isn't a Christian is a selfish bastard. You really need to learn how to stop insulting people.
quote:
Thats not to say I do not enjoy helping others, because I do. I get satisfaction knowing I am doing the work of the Lord, and he is using me to accomplish these things. I now do things that I previously didn't do before.
Ah, so you're doing it because god is bribing you to do it. How corrupt. People who don't have philosophical systems based on coercion and bribery can do good deeds simply because they are good, not because there is anybody out there who is going to reward them for it. Do you not see how it works? You place your own faith as the gold standard by which all others must be judged and impose these wild flights of fancy upon their motivations. If you don't like it when I do it to you, perhaps you should reconsider when you do it to others.
Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 162 by riVeRraT, posted 10-25-2004 9:55 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 445 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: 05-09-2004
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Message 165 of 271 (153332)
10-27-2004 8:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 163 by Rrhain
10-27-2004 3:02 AM
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If the way to God is the way of faith and of acceptance, then all boasting in human achievement is gone. There was a certain kind of Judaism which kept a kind of profit and loss account with God. In the end a man often came to a frame of mind in which he rather held that God was in his debt. Paul's position was that every man is a sinner and God's debtor, that no man could ever put himself back into a right relationship with God through his own efforts and that grounds for self-satisfaction and boasting in one's own achievement no longer exist. But, a Jew might answer, that might be well enough for a Gentile who never knew the law, but what about Jews who do know it? Paul's answer was to turn them to the sentence which is the basis of the Jewish creed, the sentence with which every synagogue service always began and still begins. "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one God" (Deut.6:4). There is not one God for the Gentiles and another for the Jews. God is one. The way to him is the same for Gentile and Jew. It is not the way of human achievement; it is the way of trusting and accepting faith. But, says the Jew, does this mean an end of all law? We might have expected Paul to say, "Yes." In point of fact he says, "No." He says that, in fact, it strengthens the law. He means this. Up to this time the Jew had tried to be a good man and keep the commandments because he was afraid of God, and was terrified of the punishment that breaches of the law would bring. That day has for ever gone. But what has taken its place is the love of God Now a man must try to be good and keep God's law, not because he fears God's punishment, but because he feels that he must strive to deserve that amazing love. He strives for goodness, not because he is afraid of God, but because he loves him. He knows now that sin is not so much breaking God's law as it is breaking God's heart, and, therefore, it is doubly terrible. Take a human analogy. Many a man is tempted to do a wrong thing, and does not do it. It is not so much that he fears the law. He would not greatly care if he were fined, or even imprisoned. What keeps him right is the simple fact that he could not meet the sorrow that would be seen in the eyes of the one who loves him if he made shipwreck of his life. It is not the law of fear but the law of love which keeps him right. It must be that way with us and God. We are rid forever of the terror of God, but that is no reason for doing as we like. We can never again do as we like for we are now for ever constrained to goodness by the law of love; and that law is far stronger than ever the law of fear can be.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 163 by Rrhain, posted 10-27-2004 3:02 AM | | Rrhain has replied |
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