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Author Topic:   How do we know God is "Good"?
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 669 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 52 of 305 (156171)
11-05-2004 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
10-28-2004 11:50 PM


Re: Not all of us base things solely on the Bible.
There is yet another record that many of us believe GOD left for us. It's the universe around us. It is amazing, awesome, wonderous. Certainly something good in all.
This raises the question, is it good if a meteor slams into your house?
Or some other disaster that is a result of the nature of the Universe?
Should we consider the Universe all good?

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 Message 5 by jar, posted 10-28-2004 11:50 PM jar has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 669 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 53 of 305 (156172)
11-05-2004 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by coffee_addict
10-29-2004 12:26 AM


No-one here has ever proven that God is responsible for evil.
He created it, only because he created everything, but he is not responsible for it happening.
But people will continue to blame him for it, and use that kind of reasoning to not accept God.
Its just like abortion, people say they are Pro-choice, and they are right, they have the choice not to screw each other.
Its like standing on the Brooklyn bridge and contemplating jumping. You just might survive the splash, but once you jump off, your choice has been made. You cannot go back and reverse it.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by grace2u, posted 11-05-2004 11:19 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 57 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2004 11:28 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 669 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 54 of 305 (156173)
11-05-2004 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
10-29-2004 12:34 AM


Re: Not all of us base things solely on the Bible.
The question is whether or not we do what are capable of doing.
Amen brother.

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 Message 9 by jar, posted 10-29-2004 12:34 AM jar has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 669 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 55 of 305 (156180)
11-05-2004 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
10-29-2004 2:06 AM


Re: The difference between Man's actions and those random ones.
Okay, I have never said that you must or even should believe in GOD. That is something between the individual and GOD himself. You, and many others deny GOD, but if you agree that "We do have the capability of making things better" and if you actually work towards making that a reality, I believe that it is the denied GOD working through you.
Denied God working through you. That is an interesting statement.
I have always looked at it like this:
Hebrews 8:10
This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
If this is true, then we should all be born with a good heart. However our hearts get harden by many things, including inherent sin, and bad religions, and the people that run them. Once we reconize that the world does not match what God has put in our hearts, we turn away from all that does not conform, religion included. Depending on our lives, we then pursue the goodness.

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 Message 14 by jar, posted 10-29-2004 2:06 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 669 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 58 of 305 (156188)
11-05-2004 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Gilgamesh
11-01-2004 1:35 AM


Re: God is good by definition
Define good.
I attempted to: "Being positive or desirable in nature, Worthy of respect; honorable, Of moral excellence, Benevolent; kind, etc, etc"
These are relevant extracts from dictionary.com.
To you consider it good do defend your mother if she was being attacked, even if it meant killing her attacker?
Or do you consider it good to kill people who attack us, like terrorists?

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 669 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 59 of 305 (156192)
11-05-2004 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by crashfrog
11-05-2004 11:28 AM


What is a car? Good or evil?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by coffee_addict, posted 11-05-2004 11:50 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 63 by lfen, posted 11-05-2004 12:39 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 64 by lfen, posted 11-05-2004 12:39 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 72 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2004 4:08 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 669 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 66 of 305 (156241)
11-05-2004 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by jar
11-05-2004 11:45 AM


Re: The difference between Man's actions and those random ones.
Nature can not be bad. The most horrific acts of animals are not bad. Only humans can be bad, IMHO.
Yes, I agree with that, but you labeled the Universe as being good. That is why I asked you that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 11-05-2004 11:45 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 669 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 67 of 305 (156245)
11-05-2004 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by coffee_addict
11-05-2004 11:50 AM


Correct. Is it the makers of the car's fault if it is involved in an act of evil?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by coffee_addict, posted 11-05-2004 11:50 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by coffee_addict, posted 11-05-2004 3:50 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 669 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 68 of 305 (156246)
11-05-2004 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by lfen
11-05-2004 12:39 PM


The source of good and evil is beyond good and evil. It is neither good nor evil, those are evaluations we pass on manifestations in terms of our local experiences of them.
So, to you the definition of good and evil is a relative term.
We might see Osam'a killings as evil, and he would see them as good.
But I believe that all of humanity in their heart believes that killing is bad, or what we call a necessary evil. Such as God's punishment to mankind.
Were we screw ourselves is when we decide to carry out God's judgment for God, instead of putting all our faith in him to justify the righteous.
If you wish to use the word God to refer to the source of the universe then that source is neither good, nor evil, and if it is the source of being it also neither is, nor is not, nor is and is not, nor neither is nor is not.
Ok you lost me.
The function of the God concept in religion is deemed good by members of that religion as they perceive it as being the source of their survival.
Or maybe it is.

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Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 669 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 75 of 305 (156343)
11-05-2004 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by coffee_addict
11-05-2004 3:50 PM


It is not a bad analogy. The car doesn't become anything until it is an extension of mans choice of what to do with it.
So it is strictly mans choice that determines whether something is good or evil, not God's

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by coffee_addict, posted 11-05-2004 3:50 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by coffee_addict, posted 11-05-2004 5:06 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 669 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 77 of 305 (156366)
11-05-2004 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
11-03-2004 9:53 AM


Re: GOD is complete.
Even if all life were destroyed, it's likely it would start again. It certainly happened at least one time before and most likely, several times. Since we know that life began even if we do not know how, there is no reason to believe it could not happen again.
This would suggest an adundance of life throughout the universe. It would even suggest that life can happen anywhere, regardless of atmosphere, elements, etc.
Or do you feel this is exclusive to earth?
Plus, I guess then you think God is responsible for bad. Why else would he create a universe where random bad things can happen.
I understand that bad doesn't mean evil, because it is just happening randomly. But it isn't that random if God created it.
Plus that doesn't explain innocent babies dying in Africa. Unless you are saying "God created the world, and he didn't give anyone the keys"
Here, here's the universe, your on your own, good luck and good games.
It seems to me, you made your own way to explain the "bigger picture". a way that allows you to get along with the masses. Which is fine really. Alot of it makes sense. Your like a middle man type person. I am the same, even if my typings in here do not reflect it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 11-03-2004 9:53 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 11-05-2004 6:00 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 669 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 79 of 305 (156371)
11-05-2004 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by crashfrog
11-05-2004 4:08 PM


Well thats not a good comparison, heres the reason why.
Do you deny that God has both the forknowledge of injury and the capacity to intervene?
No, but he leaves the decsion entirely up to us. The person who drove the car, had no knowledge before hand that it was designed bad, so he had no choice.
So the designer builds a bad car, is the car bad, or is the manufacture? It's different than God's plan for us, because that car will do harm as soon as you drive it. You on the other hand can make a choice.
I believe God has cleary put in our hearts what is good and bad, so we have no exuse for not being good.
You might say some people are raised not knowing good from bad, but this a fault of the parents or their up-bringing. That is partly why sin is inherent. Its a vicious cycle that is hard to break. But when you come to know God, you can break that cycle. Others like yourself have decided that many things are no good, so you go away from them, and then do for the good. This is deception, to keep you from your creator. You would only gain from knowing him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2004 4:08 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 669 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 80 of 305 (156372)
11-05-2004 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by coffee_addict
11-05-2004 5:06 PM


Its not that simple.
Last time I saw someone wearing a mask like that, he was in the back of a short bus, hitting the kid next to him.
Question, is free will a thing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by coffee_addict, posted 11-05-2004 5:06 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by coffee_addict, posted 11-05-2004 6:40 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 669 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 82 of 305 (156375)
11-05-2004 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
11-05-2004 6:00 PM


Re: GOD is complete.
Why are innocent babies dying in Africa?
I cannot answer a question like that, because I will never know all the variables that went into Africa becoming a Nation that has all these problems in such abundance.
I once said that Africa has all it needs to be happy. That means they have the resources to feed themselves. Diamonds for example. The way the diamond business is run there is nothing short of a mafia type operations that only feeds the greedy and sinful. Another example, all Musslems in Africa probably do know about Christ, or at some point in there long history have choosen not to follow his ways of loving one another. This can lead to the situation that they have there now. If they all loved eached other, the way Christ wants us to, then the suffering can stop.
Again I tell you , I can't possibly know why it is the way it is, I can guess, but thats not helping them is it? I can explain to you, how I got to be where I'm at, but even that, I guess I could only go back so far.
But its like you said, there is no good without bad. Maybe we need to know the difference as sort of a training for what lies beyond this life? We are constantly being tested, and it is fustrating for sure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 11-05-2004 6:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 669 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 83 of 305 (156376)
11-05-2004 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by crashfrog
11-05-2004 6:11 PM


But if you park the car in your garage, and as a result of that situation, the car explodes and kills your entire family, he is responsible, because he could have reasonably been expected to forsee that people park cars in garages.
Yes but God doesn't do that to us.
I know that you believe that "God leaves the decision up to us." What I'm telling you is, under basic legal principles, that leaves him open to culpability for our actions.
So what your saying is, if I believe in God, then I foolish in thinking I have free will?
I know a guy like this. He believes in God, and knows the bible inside and out. It saved him from the way he was. But he is now trapped in believing that he has no free will, because he knows God knows everything even before it happens. He doesn't understand God's timeline. Nor do I, but I know that if God gave us free will, then we have the gift of free will. Then it is our responsibility.
If someone gives you a puppy dog, and you don't take care of it, whos fault is it if it dies? God's?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2004 6:11 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by crashfrog, posted 11-05-2004 6:39 PM riVeRraT has replied

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