|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: How do we know God is "Good"? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 6163 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
riVeRrat
In response to this.
Yes, I understand your point, but God old us not to shoot each other, even though he gaves us the chance to. Let us adjust crashfrogs staement slightly.
crashfrog writes: If I place two children in a room with a loaded gun, and one of them shoots the other, who's responsible? The child, or me, who had the forsight to predict the shooting and the opportunity to intervene, but did not? To this situation we add that the children are told not to play with the gun else death could ensue and then the scene unfolds in tragedy then are we still not responsible?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 6163 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
riVeRrat
We are not children. we have full understanding of right and wrong, and children do not. I was hinting at the Adam and Eve in the Garden myth.From this arguement the christian world claims that the whole world sins by default. The analogy would be that Adam and Eve are the children ,the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the gun.God set up the situatuon.Can you show that God gave them knowledge of the consequence of an evil act{eating of the tree}that they might be responsible for their actions before they ate from the tree?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 6163 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
riVeRrat
You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." Having not eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil how can they have done something wrong without the understanding of what that is? Just as children have no idea neither could they.What possible meaning could death have for them without an understanding of death? This message has been edited by sidelined, 11-08-2004 06:33 PM
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 6163 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
riVeRrat
God must have explained what death was, or they already knew that it wouldn't be a good thing. But that is my point. If they already knew of good or had it explained to them what would be the point of a tree of knowledge of good and evil?
A kid needs to put his hands in a socket usually only once. Is the socket evil, or just bad? In order to be consistent with the previous examples you must include a third party knowledgable of the danger that does nothing in the way of preventing the event.If you placed an adult in the same room who is not only aware of the danger but is aware of the event occuring and watches it occur yet does nothing to prevent it then we would have something akin to the biblical account. I maintain that a god who is fully aware of the outcome and then punishes the participants{his children}when they choose the outcome he was fully aware and which he made available to them when they lack of proper knowledge to make a decision is resonsible fully for the outcome.This is a god you would worship.Pity. This message has been edited by sidelined, 11-08-2004 10:41 PM
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 6163 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
jar
But they gained the knowledge of good and evil and that is IMHO the one thing that makes us different than all the other critters. In what way does it make us different sir?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 6163 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
jar
Not a problem my good man.I will take some time to do just that, though at the rate I have been reading lately I will probably have to open up a new topic to respond as this thread will probably clear 300 by then.LOL Thanks.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 6163 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
riVerrat
He told them not to touch it. If he stops them from touching it, do we have free will? Heck and darnation RR. My point is that telling them not to touch it is as meaningless as it is to tell a child since at that point had no KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL and so were incapable of knowing that it was bad.How could they know that death was a BAD thing since they had no knowledge of such a concept BEFORE eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 6163 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
RiVeRrat
Dying is not evil, its a part of life. Touch the tree and you die Then why would it be a deterent? In a world where presumably Adam has never seen a person die what could he possibly relate it to? I am not twisting it. The words stand in the bible written as such. You,however,continue to bring up scenarios that are not related to events in the bible by way of analogy and these do not properly reflect thje entire scheme of things faced.Adam was the first person according to the bible so he has no larger society or experience upon which to weigh things presented to him. "Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." --Don Hirschberg
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 6163 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
RiVeRrat
Good answer RR,That clears things up immensely.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 6163 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
riVeRrat
Or even what heaven is going to be like. I don't know, that will be another demension, will good and bad even play a role? But life is all about choices. OK So before eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you are saying that Adam was capable of understanding the consequences of an action he undertook. I am stating that without the knowledge of such things one is incapable of making an informed decision just as a child would be.We do not hold childern responsible for their actions and in the context of the myth of eden god was wrong {since he had knowledge of his actions}for punishing Adam for disobeying a command that Adam could not know the ramifications of. "Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." --Don Hirschberg
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 6163 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
riVeRrat
Adam was capable of understanding what would be bad for him, but did not know how to commit "evil" Oh really?!! Would you care to explain why he was punished then for something evil when you agree with me that he had not an idea of evil? He did not die either so what was that about? "Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." --Don Hirschberg
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 6163 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Of course he would die just like us. He was mortal according to the bible.Yet you reflect the idea that Adam was given mortality as a punishment when this is not the case.
Why would you punish a person with death for taking a choice that you did not like when you set up the ability to choose in the first place and then tempted the person.Think,man,is this the work of a moral being? "Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." --Don Hirschberg
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 6163 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
riVeRrat
What do we think about? We think about what is good for us, and what is bad for us. Good cannot exist without bad. Why is it you won't take your own advice and put yourself in Adam's shoes? He had no bad to compare to did he?We have a a world with examples to gauge by and Adam did not.Why do you refuse to directly answer my questions? "Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." --Don Hirschberg
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 6163 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
riVeRrat
JHC man I am not an idiot! I read and understood your point about the death is not evil but that death would be bad for Adam and he should have realized it.You however are focusing in the wrong place.Adam could NOT have known about bad before he partook of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and evil. You yourself are aware of this and even stated so in post 178
We think about what is good for us, and what is bad for us. Good cannot exist without bad. The converse is also true.Bad cannot exist without the good since it is necessary in order to compare the two to gauge the relative aspects of their existence.Hence Adam could not have known it was bad for him to die and bad for him to eat the fruit in EXACTLY the same way a child is not capable of such. You still have not directly answered other questions as I presented them to you.
Why would you punish a person with death for taking a choice that you did not like when you set up the ability to choose in the first place and then tempted the person?Think,man,is this the work of a moral being? "Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." --Don Hirschberg
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 6163 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
riVerrat
He knew the tree was evil, but he did not experience the evil until he ate of it That cannot fly either because the tree was not evil it was the fruit that contained knowledge of good and evil,therefore Adam cannot know evil before eating of it.Otherwise there is no point to the trees existence. This message has been edited by sidelined, 11-15-2004 12:15 AM "Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." --Don Hirschberg
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024