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Author Topic:   COVID vaccine works - we're saved!
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1006 of 1088 (910439)
04-22-2023 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1004 by Percy
04-22-2023 5:35 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Go for it, show the contradictions in the Bible.
Percy:
My, my, you *do* have a problem staying on topic. I just wanted to know if you really want society's goals (health related ones in this thread, of course) guided by a book full of contradictions after you described one of them yourself, about death and/or stoning to death (Deuteronony/Leviticus) or not stoning (Jesus in John).

Do you want society's goals to be guided only by the Bible, or are the books of other religions allowed, too?

Why shouldn't a multireligious society set health goals that are free of religious influences?

Don't you know that God made a new covenant? Read Jeremiah 31:31-34. There were many reasons why the woman with Jesus wasn't stoned. Not the least of the reasons was that all the men (from the oldest to the youngest) had their own sins to be dealt with. They did not hold a trial, they did not bring the man caught in adultery forward to be stoned. They were not dealing justly according to Leviticus or Deuteronomy.
Do you mean influences that you don't agree with?
Kleinman:
You still don't understand, STDs are infectious diseases transmitted by the behavior of people. Do you think Covid can be transmitted by promiscuous behavior, even if they wear masks?
Percy:
Do you get things wrong on purpose, or is your comprehension really this bad?

So, do you think that Covid can only be transmitted by inhaled droplets?
Kleinman:
There are people that proclaim themselves witches, you should debate this point with them.
Percy:
And some people think they're Napoleon. Do you argue with them, too?

You will have to ask the people that proclaim themselves witches.
Kleinman:
Why? It has never stopped you.
Percy:
Yes, I can see you're in your element now. Unable to discuss intelligently, your goal is to cause chaos and bring discussion down to the mudslinging level so that onlookers can't tell who is the idiot. We can't stop you from going on this way. Only you can.

Who is doing the mudslinging? All I'm doing is pointing out the facts. Why does that cause chaos?
Kleinman:
You like to post graphs. Where is your graph that shows that show that a general mask mandate reduced the spread of Covid compared with regions that didn't have a mask mandate.
Percy:
Where is your graph that shows that they don't?

Apparently, epidemiologists don't have any data to graph on whether masks help or not to prevent the spread of Covid.
Kleinman:
Do you think a general mask mandate was done with good intentions, if so, show the data that describes the outcome.
Percy:
You *do* like repeating yourself.

You could post a graph that shows that a general mask mandate reduced the spread of Covid compared to a region without a mask mandate and stop this repetition right now.
Kleinman:
Where have I said that vaccinations do not reduce the severity of respiratory infections?
Percy:
So you *do* believe that vaccinations reduce the severity of respiratory infections? Do you also believe they can reduce the likelihood that someone will become ill with an infection? Do you understand that making illness less likely reduces spread? And that reducing spread reduces illness and death? And that therefore unvaccinated people in public spaces increase illness and death?

I've said this before and I'll post the message number if you want. What I have also said is that people that don't want to get vaccinated put themselves at greater risk but that is their free choice and they should not be sanctioned for their choice. It is you that want to force people to get vaccinations.
Kleinman:
I get it, you can't point to a message that shows you understand that people with weakened immune systems and comorbidities (heart disease, cancer, diabetes, asthma,...) are at much greater risk from diseases that might be considered mild.
Percy:
I suggest you search the thread and see which of us was first to use the term "comorbidities". Maybe it will refresh your memory.

I started posting on this thread on Message 612 in response to your Message 611. I've been pointing out this issue of comorbidities with Covid, influenza, and many other "milder" viral infections since the beginning of the Covid episode. I'm glad you finally figured it out in this thread, it is about time.
Kleinman:
Cuomo was sending people from the hospital to convalesent homes where elderly people were residing.
Percy:
Not surprising that you've got this backwards. Cuomo wasn't sending people to nursing homes. He was preventing nursing homes from denying admission to covid infected people.

So, Cuomo was forcing nursing homes to take Covid patients even thought the operators knew the risk. That's the kind of leadership you like. Send people to nursing homes that are filled with people that have comorbidities and surprise, surprise, you get thousands of deaths. Of course, with your knowledge of comorbidities, you could see what Cuomo did would have a bad outcome.
Kleinman:
You are the one saying health care is a right.
Percy:
I think your mind is playing tricks on you, or perhaps it's jumping to conclusions. Is your mind usually this unreliable?

Can't you make up your mind, is health care a right or is it not a right?
Kleinman:
Now, what are you trying to force people to do.
Percy:
Only you know, so you'll just have to tell us what your little imagination has cooked up out of thin air.

Don't worry, it will be substantiated with experimental and empirical evidence and will be mathematically logical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1004 by Percy, posted 04-22-2023 5:35 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1007 by Percy, posted 04-23-2023 8:57 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21581
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 1007 of 1088 (910448)
04-23-2023 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1006 by Kleinman
04-22-2023 7:08 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
Don't you know that God made a new covenant? Read Jeremiah 31:31-34. There were many reasons why the woman with Jesus wasn't stoned. Not the least of the reasons was that all the men (from the oldest to the youngest) had their own sins to be dealt with. They did not hold a trial, they did not bring the man caught in adultery forward to be stoned. They were not dealing justly according to Leviticus or Deuteronomy.
Awww, you believe all this stuff. That's so adorable.
Percy writes:
Why shouldn't a multireligious society set health goals that are free of religious influences?
Do you mean influences that you don't agree with?
No. Why would you think that? Is your mind playing tricks on you again? Why do you think religion should influence public health policy? And would that be only Christian religion or all religions?
So, do you think that Covid can only be transmitted by inhaled droplets?
You still seem to be having a problem with recall. See Message 838, a reply to you.
You also continually repeat the mistake of thinking that the first time someone mentions something is the first time they've become aware of it. But people don't do complete brain dumps in every message. What they know comes out gradually during discussion as it wanders among subtopics.
You will have to ask the people that proclaim themselves witches.
I think debating self-proclaimed witches is *your* thing. I'm glad you're letting them live, though.
Who is doing the mudslinging? All I'm doing is pointing out the facts. Why does that cause chaos?
Yep, nothing going on here, folks, if he does say so himself. Sugar wouldn't melt in his mouth.
Apparently, epidemiologists don't have any data to graph on whether masks help or not to prevent the spread of Covid.
And yet if you do a Google image search, there they are.
You could post a graph that shows that a general mask mandate reduced the spread of Covid compared to a region without a mask mandate and stop this repetition right now.
Try this one:
I've said this before and I'll post the message number if you want. What I have also said is that people that don't want to get vaccinated put themselves at greater risk but that is their free choice and they should not be sanctioned for their choice. It is you that want to force people to get vaccinations.
Balancing personal freedom against public safety is a tough call. I have no easy answers for you. Does that sound familiar? It should, because this must be the third or fourth time I've said it. But you don't care about what people actually say. You just make it up
I started posting on this thread on Message 612 in response to your Message 611. I've been pointing out this issue of comorbidities with Covid, influenza, and many other "milder" viral infections since the beginning of the Covid episode. I'm glad you finally figured it out in this thread, it is about time.
You didn't do the search I suggested, did you. If you do that search you'll see that the first to mention comorbidities was not you.
And why do you think people are unaware of comorbidity? It's one of the simpler things about disease to understand. All it means is that someone is dealing with at least one other medical issue. Why do you think this is a difficult concept? I guess your obvious insecurities drive you to say things that make you feel smarter.
So, Cuomo was forcing nursing homes to take Covid patients even thought the operators knew the risk.
Hey, you've finally got it right. Congratulations. Only took you three tries.
That's the kind of leadership you like. Send people to nursing homes that are filled with people that have comorbidities and surprise, surprise, you get thousands of deaths. Of course, with your knowledge of comorbidities, you could see what Cuomo did would have a bad outcome.
There you go, making things up in your own mind again.
But it *is* a difficult question. When hospitals have no more room for covid patients, where should the overflow go in the case of the elderly?
Can't you make up your mind, is health care a right or is it not a right?
Why do you even have to ask? What makes you think anyone out there believes health care is a right in this country.
Did you mean to ask whether I believe health care should be a right? I can only repeat what I've said before. I think society's goals should include maintaining as healthy a population as reasonably possible. I haven't said anything about the means of achieving this.
Percy writes:
Now, what are you trying to force people to do.
Only you know, so you'll just have to tell us what your little imagination has cooked up out of thin air.
Don't worry, it will be substantiated with experimental and empirical evidence and will be mathematically logical.
Not only do you falsely think I'm trying to force people to do something, you think you can substantiate this claim with "experimental and empirical evidence [that] will be mathematically logical" when you don't even know who I am. That doesn't make any sense at all. You are truly confused and delusional.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1006 by Kleinman, posted 04-22-2023 7:08 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1008 by Kleinman, posted 04-23-2023 11:44 AM Percy has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1008 of 1088 (910453)
04-23-2023 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1007 by Percy
04-23-2023 8:57 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Don't you know that God made a new covenant? Read Jeremiah 31:31-34. There were many reasons why the woman with Jesus wasn't stoned. Not the least of the reasons was that all the men (from the oldest to the youngest) had their own sins to be dealt with. They did not hold a trial, they did not bring the man caught in adultery forward to be stoned. They were not dealing justly according to Leviticus or Deuteronomy.
Percy:
Awww, you believe all this stuff. That's so adorable.

You might not find it so adorable when God judges you. Awww, you don't believe all this stuff.
Percy:
Why shouldn't a multireligious society set health goals that are free of religious influences?
Kleinman:
Do you mean influences that you don't agree with?
Percy:
No. Why would you think that? Is your mind playing tricks on you again? Why do you think religion should influence public health policy? And would that be only Christian religion or all religions?


I think everyone has the right to influence health policy, it is called the right to free speech. It appears you have a problem with free speech when you say, "Why shouldn't a multireligious society set health goals that are free of religious influences?".
Kleinman:
So, do you think that Covid can only be transmitted by inhaled droplets?
Percy:
You still seem to be having a problem with recall. See Message 838, a reply to you.

You also continually repeat the mistake of thinking that the first time someone mentions something is the first time they've become aware of it. But people don't do complete brain dumps in every message. What they know comes out gradually during discussion as it wanders among subtopics.​

Feel free to post a quote from any of your links that say that Covid can only be transmitted by inhaled droplets and that the virus cannot be transmitted during sexual contact other than by inhaling droplets. You won't. You are confused and wrong.
Kleinman:
You will have to ask the people that proclaim themselves witches.
Percy:
I think debating self-proclaimed witches is *your* thing. I'm glad you're letting them live, though.

You have a very short memory, it was you that brought up the topic of witches. You are really having trouble making a coherent argument.
Kleinman:
Who is doing the mudslinging? All I'm doing is pointing out the facts. Why does that cause chaos?
Percy:
Yep, nothing going on here, folks, if he does say so himself. Sugar wouldn't melt in his mouth.

Now Percy brings up "sugar". You are still having difficulty putting together a coherent arguement.
Kleinman:
Apparently, epidemiologists don't have any data to graph on whether masks help or not to prevent the spread of Covid.
Percy:
And yet if you do a Google image search, there they are.

Oh boy, Percy is about to post data that shows a mask mandate has a significant effect on the spread of Covid.
Kleinman:
You could post a graph that shows that a general mask mandate reduced the spread of Covid compared to a region without a mask mandate and stop this repetition right now.
Percy:
Try this one:


Let's consider some of the numbers. The colored lines show new cases per 100,000 people. The y-axis is the number of new cases per day, and the x-axis it the time period. The mandate is implemented in July. At that time, in counties that did not require masks, less than 5 people per 100,000 per day were getting Covid, while in counties where people that were wearing masks, over 10 people per 100,000 per day were getting Covid. Masks don't seem to be helping at all in July and in fact, more people are being infected per 100,000 while wearing masks than those not wearing masks. Somewhere around September, the incidence lines cross when the rate of infection is about 15 people per 100,000 per day. At that point, the mask mandate line stays fairly constant at 15-20 infections per 100,000 per day while the unmasked population starts to rise from 15 to an apparent maximum of about 40 new infections per 100,000 per day. 15 new infections per 100,000 per day*30 days = 450 new infections per 100,000 people for the masked population in September. (15+40)/2 new infections per 100,000 per day*30 day = 825 new infections per 100,000 people for the unmasked population in the same time interval, September. Why did the source authors stop their plot at October? And is the reduction of incidence of infection from less than 0.82% to about 0.45% a significant change?
Percy, I don't think you understand the severity of the problem with data collection concerning Covid. Do you understand what a death certificate is? Do you have any familiarity with these documents? As part of my medical training, I learned how to fill out a death certificate and during my training, I was assigned to fill out these documents for several patients. It isn't a complex document. It has places to fill out to identify the patient, places to fill out for dates, and some other details. Two places to fill out are the cause of death and the second place for related factors. For example, the cause of death might be pulmonary edema (fluid in the lungs), but the related factors could be heart failure, infection, cancer, or any of a number of other factors that could cause fluid to accumulate in the lungs. The way the physician puts down the cause of death can have a significant effect on the way data is collected. The question is, did anything like this happen with the collection of data for Covid? If you are interested in whether this happened or not, watch the following video made by a physician who also happened to be a state senator from Minnesota and was involved in collecting the data on Covid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHxj_Luclxs&ab_channel=Jo...
Kleinman:
I've said this before and I'll post the message number if you want. What I have also said is that people that don't want to get vaccinated put themselves at greater risk but that is their free choice and they should not be sanctioned for their choice. It is you that want to force people to get vaccinations.
Percy:
Balancing personal freedom against public safety is a tough call. I have no easy answers for you. Does that sound familiar? It should, because this must be the third or fourth time I've said it. But you don't care about what people actually say. You just make it up

You are wrong Percy, I do care about what people say. I ended up in a profession that is strongly influenced by what people say. What do you think the medical history is all about? People are telling me their story and I take that story and physical examination (lab tests, etc.) and come to some kind of medical diagnosis. Your mistake is that you think you have the corner on the truth. I listen to your arguments and I am left with the impression that you are a superficial thinker.
Kleinman:
I started posting on this thread on Message 612 in response to your Message 611. I've been pointing out this issue of comorbidities with Covid, influenza, and many other "milder" viral infections since the beginning of the Covid episode. I'm glad you finally figured it out in this thread, it is about time.
Percy:
You didn't do the search I suggested, did you. If you do that search you'll see that the first to mention comorbidities was not you.

And why do you think people are unaware of comorbidity? It's one of the simpler things about disease to understand. All it means is that someone is dealing with at least one other medical issue. Why do you think this is a difficult concept? I guess your obvious insecurities drive you to say things that make you feel smarter.

Now you know what searches I've done or haven't done. Do you want me to post Message 574? You don't understand the difficulty of assigning a cause of death when a person has comorbidities? You don't understand that assigning a cause of death can have a huge impact on the profitability of a drug company. Hopefully, you watched the video I linked to earlier in this message so that you can get a clue on this.
Kleinman:
So, Cuomo was forcing nursing homes to take Covid patients even thought the operators knew the risk.
Percy:
Hey, you've finally got it right. Congratulations. Only took you three tries.

Whatever
Kleinman:
That's the kind of leadership you like. Send people to nursing homes that are filled with people that have comorbidities and surprise, surprise, you get thousands of deaths. Of course, with your knowledge of comorbidities, you could see what Cuomo did would have a bad outcome.
Percy:
There you go, making things up in your own mind again.

But it *is* a difficult question. When hospitals have no more room for covid patients, where should the overflow go in the case of the elderly?

Have you forgot what Trump tried to do for New York?
https://www.nbcnews.com/...-sees-navy-hospital-ship-n1171256
President Donald Trump visited Norfolk, Va. on Saturday to see off the USNS Comfort, a Navy hospital ship that is headed to New York to provide extra space and support to medical workers in the fight against the coronavirus outbreak.
Kleinman:
Can't you make up your mind, is health care a right or is it not a right?
Percy:
Why do you even have to ask? What makes you think anyone out there believes health care is a right in this country.

Did you mean to ask whether I believe health care should be a right? I can only repeat what I've said before. I think society's goals should include maintaining as healthy a population as reasonably possible. I haven't said anything about the means of achieving this.

That's really helpful. You think society's goals should include maintaining as healthy a population as reasonably possible. If you aren't going to thank God for that, you should thank a farmer for that.
Kleinman:
Now, what are you trying to force people to do.
Percy:
Only you know, so you'll just have to tell us what your little imagination has cooked up out of thin air.
Kleinman:
Don't worry, it will be substantiated with experimental and empirical evidence and will be mathematically logical.
Percy:
Not only do you falsely think I'm trying to force people to do something, you think you can substantiate this claim with "experimental and empirical evidence [that] will be mathematically logical" when you don't even know who I am. That doesn't make any sense at all. You are truly confused and delusional.



You don't even understand what persuasion is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1007 by Percy, posted 04-23-2023 8:57 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1009 by Percy, posted 04-23-2023 1:57 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 1010 by xongsmith, posted 04-23-2023 2:34 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21581
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 1009 of 1088 (910455)
04-23-2023 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1008 by Kleinman
04-23-2023 11:44 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
You might not find it so adorable when God judges you. Awww, you don't believe all this stuff.
Watch out for the boogieman, too.
I think everyone has the right to influence health policy, it is called the right to free speech. It appears you have a problem with free speech when you say, "Why shouldn't a multireligious society set health goals that are free of religious influences?".
Still making stuff up, I see. So tell us which religions should be informing society's health policies, and what should they be telling them?
Feel free to post a quote from any of your links that say that Covid can only be transmitted by inhaled droplets and that the virus cannot be transmitted during sexual contact other than by inhaling droplets. You won't. You are confused and wrong.
Is English your second language?
You have a very short memory, it was you that brought up the topic of witches. You are really having trouble making a coherent argument.
Actually you prompted the mention of witches by citing the Bible as a source of health policy. So how are you and those witches getting along?
Now Percy brings up "sugar". You are still having difficulty putting together a coherent argument.
Yeah, right. You can't even recognize a figure of speech.
In response to the graph on masks you say:
Let's consider some of the numbers...etc...
You said there were no graphs on masks, so I showed you a graph on masks. Wrong again, huh Kleinman? You then ramble on for two long nonsensical paragraphs casting random aspersions at a study you haven't even seen and then finish up with...wait for it...A YOUTUBE VIDEO! Good show!
You are wrong Percy, I do care about what people say.
Of course you do. That's why you ignore what people actually say and respond as if they said something else. Unable to counter the actual arguments you make up nonsensical ones that are manageable for you, and then you (no Kleinman post would be complete without this) declare how wonderful you are and how little everyone else understands.
I ended up in a profession that is strongly influenced by what people say.
I can only comment on what I see, and what I see here is you ignoring and denigrating people. I expect that carries over to all aspects of your life, including your professional life where it isn't your opinion of yourself that counts but your patients.
Now you know what searches I've done or haven't done. Do you want me to post Message 574?
Hey, you did a search! Congratulations! Next time maybe do the search before making stupid comments instead of after.
You don't understand the difficulty of assigning a cause of death when a person has comorbidities? You don't understand that assigning a cause of death can have a huge impact on the profitability of a drug company.
You're repeating yourself. Again. As you already know, excess deaths were pretty close to covid deaths, so there's little substance to the claim that covid deaths were misclassified.
Hopefully, you watched the video I linked to earlier in this message so that you can get a clue on this.
As the Forum Guidelines make clear, present the information and make the argument in your own words, and your YouTube video can serve as a supporting reference.
Percy writes:
But it *is* a difficult question. When hospitals have no more room for covid patients, where should the overflow go in the case of the elderly?
Have you forgot what Trump tried to do for New York?
https://www.nbcnews.com/...-sees-navy-hospital-ship-n1171256
President Donald Trump visited Norfolk, Va. on Saturday to see off the USNS Comfort, a Navy hospital ship that is headed to New York to provide extra space and support to medical workers in the fight against the coronavirus outbreak.
So your argument is that because Trump sent a hospital ship to help out during a pandemic that that created a right to health care?
By the way, the intent was not for the hospital ship to provide covid care but to provide care for people with other ailments, thereby relieving pressure on New York City's hospital system. Unfortunately the hospital ship was barely used due to "a tangle of military protocols and bureaucratic hurdles..." (USNS Comfort Hospital Ship Was Supposed to Aid New York. It Has 3 Patients. - The New York Times)
That's really helpful. You think society's goals should include maintaining as healthy a population as reasonably possible. If you aren't going to thank God for that, you should thank a farmer for that.
This didn't make sense.
You don't even understand what persuasion is.
I don't think you should be claiming any competence in persuasion. You seem driven to draw as much scorn as possible. Even someone making rational arguments couldn't persuade anyone using your approach.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1008 by Kleinman, posted 04-23-2023 11:44 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1011 by Kleinman, posted 04-23-2023 3:21 PM Percy has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2508
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 1010 of 1088 (910456)
04-23-2023 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1008 by Kleinman
04-23-2023 11:44 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
in the Kleinbottle's ramblings i found this:
a cause of death can have a huge impact on the profitability of a drug company
But the profitability of any drug company should be irrelevant in a civilized country, like one that provides health care for everyone of its citizens.
the USA is not a civilized country yet.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1008 by Kleinman, posted 04-23-2023 11:44 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1012 by Kleinman, posted 04-23-2023 3:27 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1011 of 1088 (910457)
04-23-2023 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1009 by Percy
04-23-2023 1:57 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
You might not find it so adorable when God judges you. Awww, you don't believe all this stuff.
Percy:
Watch out for the boogieman, too.

You can watch out for whatever you want.
Kleinman:
I think everyone has the right to influence health policy, it is called the right to free speech. It appears you have a problem with free speech when you say, "Why shouldn't a multireligious society set health goals that are free of religious influences?".
Percy:
Still making stuff up, I see. So tell us which religions should be informing society's health policies, and what should they be telling them?

Anyone can say whatever they want, even someone so ill-prepared as you.
Kleinman:
Feel free to post a quote from any of your links that say that Covid can only be transmitted by inhaled droplets and that the virus cannot be transmitted during sexual contact other than by inhaling droplets. You won't. You are confused and wrong.
Percy:
Is English your second language?

Percy has numerous ways of saying that he doesn't have the quote to post.
Kleinman:
You have a very short memory, it was you that brought up the topic of witches. You are really having trouble making a coherent argument.
Percy:
Actually you prompted the mention of witches by citing the Bible as a source of health policy. So how are you and those witches getting along?

It doesn't take much prompting to get Percy to talk. Does Percy want a cracker?
Kleinman:
Now Percy brings up "sugar". You are still having difficulty putting together a coherent argument.
Percy:
Yeah, right. You can't even recognize a figure of speech.

I do recognize when someone has little to say.
Percy:
In response to the graph on masks you say:
Kleinman:
Let's consider some of the numbers...etc...
Percy:
You said there were no graphs on masks, so I showed you a graph on masks. Wrong again, huh Kleinman? You then ramble on for two long nonsensical paragraphs casting random aspersions at a study you haven't even seen and then finish up with...wait for it...A YOUTUBE VIDEO! Good show!


Now we know what you think is a significant effect of a mask mandate. And you have less of an understanding of comorbidities.
Kleinman:
You are wrong Percy, I do care about what people say.
Percy:
Of course you do. That's why you ignore what people actually say and respond as if they said something else. Unable to counter the actual arguments you make up nonsensical ones that are manageable for you, and then you (no Kleinman post would be complete without this) declare how wonderful you are and how little everyone else understands.

When have you made an argument? All you do is post a graph that show that a mask mandate had no significant effect on the spread of Covid and claim that people that have a different viewpoint than you should not have input on societal healthcare.
Kleinman:
I ended up in a profession that is strongly influenced by what people say.
Percy:
I can only comment on what I see, and what I see here is you ignoring and denigrating people. I expect that carries over to all aspects of your life, including your professional life where it isn't your opinion of yourself that counts but your patients.

Poor Percy, he feels ignored and denigrated. Somebody give him his pacifier.
Kleinman:
Now you know what searches I've done or haven't done. Do you want me to post Message 574?
Percy:
Hey, you did a search! Congratulations! Next time maybe do the search before making stupid comments instead of after.

Now, if you only understood the effects of comorbidities on Covid, influenza, and other infectious diseases. Then you might understand why the collection and analysis of Covid data are not showing what you want. Perhaps I'm asking too much from someone that doesn't have the faintest idea of the practice of medicine.
Kleinman:
You don't understand the difficulty of assigning a cause of death when a person has comorbidities? You don't understand that assigning a cause of death can have a huge impact on the profitability of a drug company.
Percy:
You're repeating yourself. Again. As you already know, excess deaths were pretty close to covid deaths, so there's little substance to the claim that covid deaths were misclassified.

Next, Percy is going to tell us that Pfizer and Moderna didn't make a fortune off of Covid vaccine. Percy, you have no idea how pharmaceutical companies work. You are so naive.
Kleinman:
Hopefully, you watched the video I linked to earlier in this message so that you can get a clue on this.
Percy:
As the Forum Guidelines make clear, present the information and make the argument in your own words, and your YouTube video can serve as a supporting reference.

Did you watch the video of a physician/legislator who reports that Covid data was being overemphasized by how it was being reported on death certificates? It couldn't be because Pfizer and Moderna made billions of dollars off of their vaccines. You are so naive.
Percy:
But it *is* a difficult question. When hospitals have no more room for covid patients, where should the overflow go in the case of the elderly?
Kleinman:
Have you forgot what Trump tried to do for New York?
https://www.nbcnews.com/...-sees-navy-hospital-ship-n1171256
President Donald Trump visited Norfolk, Va. on Saturday to see off the USNS Comfort, a Navy hospital ship that is headed to New York to provide extra space and support to medical workers in the fight against the coronavirus outbreak.
Percy:
So your argument is that because Trump sent a hospital ship to help out during a pandemic that that created a right to health care?

By the way, the intent was not for the hospital ship to provide covid care but to provide care for people with other ailments, thereby relieving pressure on New York City's hospital system. Unfortunately the hospital ship was barely used due to "a tangle of military protocols and bureaucratic hurdles..." (USNS Comfort Hospital Ship Was Supposed to Aid New York. It Has 3 Patients. - The New York Times)


I realize this is difficult for you to understand but this is a contrast between what Trump wanted to do and what Cumomo did. All you have shown is the bureaucracy was never very helpful to Trump or to the people of New York. The people of New York are now showing their gratitude to Trump. It just makes you want to visit that place filled with grateful people.
Kleinman:
That's really helpful. You think society's goals should include maintaining as healthy a population as reasonably possible. If you aren't going to thank God for that, you should thank a farmer for that.
Percy:
This didn't make sense.

I realize it is hard for you to see the obvious, but a well-fed population is healthier than a starving population.
Kleinman:
You don't even understand what persuasion is.
Percy:
I don't think you should be claiming any competence in persuasion. You seem driven to draw as much scorn as possible. Even someone making rational arguments couldn't persuade anyone using your approach.

Some people can't be persuaded by physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence. Fear has taken over their thinking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1009 by Percy, posted 04-23-2023 1:57 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1013 by AZPaul3, posted 04-23-2023 4:35 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 1017 by Percy, posted 04-23-2023 8:28 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1012 of 1088 (910458)
04-23-2023 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1010 by xongsmith
04-23-2023 2:34 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
a cause of death can have a huge impact on the profitability of a drug company
xongsmith:
But the profitability of any drug company should be irrelevant in a civilized country, like one that provides health care for everyone of its citizens.

the USA is not a civilized country yet.

xongsmith will now explain to us how money doesn't influence anyone's decisions. And to prove how civilized he is, xongsmith will pay all our healthcare bills.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1010 by xongsmith, posted 04-23-2023 2:34 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8055
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1013 of 1088 (910459)
04-23-2023 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1011 by Kleinman
04-23-2023 3:21 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Some people can't be persuaded by physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence. Fear has taken over their thinking.
Most knowledgeable people will not be persuaded by faulty Kleinman mathematics. We know whatever you present is bogus.
On that, with all your supposed expertise in physics, you still cling to a fantasy ghost as your emotional thumb to suck. Your intellect is broken.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1011 by Kleinman, posted 04-23-2023 3:21 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1014 by Kleinman, posted 04-23-2023 4:53 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1014 of 1088 (910460)
04-23-2023 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1013 by AZPaul3
04-23-2023 4:35 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Some people can't be persuaded by physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence. Fear has taken over their thinking.
AZPaul3:
Most knowledgeable people will not be persuaded by faulty Kleinman mathematics. We know whatever you present is bogus.

On that, with all your supposed expertise in physics, you still cling to a fantasy ghost as your emotional thumb to suck. Your intellect is broken.

AZPaul3 will now point out the faulty mathematics I've presented in these papers that describe descent with modification and adaptation which includes an explanation of why Covid vaccines are not 100% effective.
For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
And for multiple simultaneous selection pressures:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
Do your best AZPaul3, which is nothing. This mathematics was checked by experts and they published these papers. Go ahead, complain to the editors and publishers of Statistics in Medicine and to Retraction Watch – Tracking retractions as a window into the scientific process and see if you can get anywhere. You won't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1013 by AZPaul3, posted 04-23-2023 4:35 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1015 by AZPaul3, posted 04-23-2023 5:51 PM Kleinman has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8055
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 1015 of 1088 (910461)
04-23-2023 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1014 by Kleinman
04-23-2023 4:53 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
AZPaul3 will now point out the faulty mathematics I've presented in these papers ...
Naw. That's already been done on this site and others across the internet where you were kicked out for being an ignorant ass. No use re-inventing the wheel.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1014 by Kleinman, posted 04-23-2023 4:53 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1016 by Kleinman, posted 04-23-2023 6:11 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1016 of 1088 (910462)
04-23-2023 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1015 by AZPaul3
04-23-2023 5:51 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
AZPaul3 will now point out the faulty mathematics I've presented in these papers ...
AZPaul3:
Naw. That's already been done on this site and others across the internet where you were kicked out for being an ignorant ass. No use re-inventing the wheel.

AZPaul3 knows how to be ignorant and not be kicked out. Let's see if he can refute the correct mathematics that describes descent with modification and adaptation.
For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
For multiple simultaneous selection pressures:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
AZPaul3 likes to go round and round.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1015 by AZPaul3, posted 04-23-2023 5:51 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21581
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 1017 of 1088 (910463)
04-23-2023 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1011 by Kleinman
04-23-2023 3:21 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Wow! When you go off the deep end you really go whole hog. Addressing the on-topic parts...
Now we know what you think is a significant effect of a mask mandate.
It isn't what I think that matters. What matters is whether there's sufficient evidence to form a consensus among health authorities about the efficacy of masks.
No one is talking mask mandates but you. What I've said repeatedly is that balancing personal freedom against public safety is a tough call.
And you have less of an understanding of comorbidities.
That's what you always say about everything. Do even you believe you?
All you do is post a graph that show that a mask mandate had no significant effect on the spread of Covid...
I think you have your eyes closed.
...and claim that people that have a different viewpoint than you should not have input on societal healthcare.
Are you going to tell us what religions you think should be setting health policy?
Next, Percy is going to tell us that Pfizer and Moderna didn't make a fortune off of Covid vaccine. Percy, you have no idea how pharmaceutical companies work. You are so naive.
Do you realize how absurd you sound? You're calling naive something no one said but you.
Did you watch the video of a physician/legislator who reports that Covid data was being overemphasized by how it was being reported on death certificates?
I did look up Scott Jensen. He's an anti-vaxxer who claims covid deaths are overstated because many had comorbidities that would have caused their deaths within two or three years anyway.
It couldn't be because Pfizer and Moderna made billions of dollars off of their vaccines. You are so naive.
We still don't know what your point is.
I realize this is difficult for you to understand but this is a contrast between what Trump wanted to do and what Cuomo did.
I think you must have arguments going on in your head that you're not letting anyone else in on. No one has any idea why you've launched into this Trump/Cuomo comparison.
I realize it is hard for you to see the obvious, but a well-fed population is healthier than a starving population.
Many things seem obvious to conspiracy theorists.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1011 by Kleinman, posted 04-23-2023 3:21 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1019 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 9:35 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21581
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 1018 of 1088 (910464)
04-24-2023 9:05 AM


Excess Mortality
Here again is the excess mortality graph for the US from 1/5/2020 until 2/26/2023. Up to this point there has not been a decline into negative numbers that would balance the excess deaths prior to now. If claims that the excess deaths were mostly people who would have died within a couple years or so anyway, that they just died a little prematurely because of covid, then the rest of this year should see this number decline deep into the negative numbers. We'll just watch and see:
It's important to keep in mind that excess mortality always evens out over time, because everyone dies eventually. A teen killed in a car accident today becomes an excess mortality statistic today but a deficit mortality statistic 70 or so years from now when he would normally have been expected to die.
This means that the million plus US citizens who died of covid during the pandemic and showed up as excess mortality statistics will eventually show up as deficit mortality statistics down the road. That's inevitable. But if the claim that most of these people would have died within a couple years anyway is true then deficit mortality will become significant very soon. If it doesn't then it shows these claims wrong.
My personal experience is that most everyone I know has comorbidities that I'm aware of and likely additional ones that I'm not, but my peer group seems to be living well into their 80's on average anyway. My mother had three serious comorbidities and lived to be 96. She died of old age in bed despite her comorbidities.
Doctors in traditional practice, i.e., not on the battlefield, should not be playing God and making treatment decisions based upon who they think will live or die. They should be doing their best to administer the best possible healthcare to all their patients.
Here's a mask chart from December of 2020 showing new covid cases per 100,000 versus whether the states had mask mandates or not:
(from Why every state should have a mask mandate, in 4 charts - Vox)
Only southern states managed to maintain low covid rates without a mask mandate, which makes sense given their greater ability to spend time outdoors. The sole exception is New Hampshire where most of the population lives in the southern part of the state and often follows Massachusetts lead, which did have mask mandates. I can vouch for the fact that in grocery stores (the most crowded place I usually visit) the mask wearing rate was around 80% during covid peaks.
The second bivalent booster should be available in pharmacies here soon, and we'll be signing up when they are.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 1020 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 9:53 AM Percy has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1019 of 1088 (910465)
04-24-2023 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1017 by Percy
04-23-2023 8:28 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Now we know what you think is a significant effect of a mask mandate.
Percy:
It isn't what I think that matters. What matters is whether there's sufficient evidence to form a consensus among health authorities about the efficacy of masks.

No one is talking mask mandates but you. What I've said repeatedly is that balancing personal freedom against public safety is a tough call.

Which authorities? Do you mean authorities like Anthony Fauci who told Joe Biden that getting vaccinated prevents you from spreading the disease? Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. That's what the "authorities" gave us this time.
Kleinman:
And you have less of an understanding of comorbidities.
Percy:
That's what you always say about everything. Do even you believe you?

Percy, tell us what you know about comorbidities. If someone has cancer or heart disease, and covid and dies, what is his cause of death?
Kleinman:
All you do is post a graph that show that a mask mandate had no significant effect on the spread of Covid...
Percy:
I think you have your eyes closed.

Let's open our eyes and take a look again at the graph you posted.
Why in July is the spread of covid twice as high in counties where people wear masks than in counties where people aren't wearing masks?
Kleinman:
...and claim that people that have a different viewpoint than you should not have input on societal healthcare.
Percy:
Are you going to tell us what religions you think should be setting health policy?

Anyone can have input, even someone so ill-prepared and confused like you.
Kleinman:
Next, Percy is going to tell us that Pfizer and Moderna didn't make a fortune off of Covid vaccine. Percy, you have no idea how pharmaceutical companies work. You are so naive.
Percy:
Do you realize how absurd you sound? You're calling naive something no one said but you.

That's the reason you are so naive. You don't understand that vaccinations can be a very profitable business. Then Tangle can start a thread that tells us we are all saved while Pfizer and Moderna are laughing all the way to the bank.
Kleinman:
Did you watch the video of a physician/legislator who reports that Covid data was being overemphasized by how it was being reported on death certificates?
Percy:
I did look up Scott Jensen. He's an anti-vaxxer who claims covid deaths are overstated because many had comorbidities that would have caused their deaths within two or three years anyway.

I had never heard of Scott Jensen until I saw this video. Now you make an accusation that he is an anti-vaxxer. Post a quote from him to support your claim. For some reason, I think you won't because he never made any such statement. Try supporting your argument with something other than false accusations.
Kleinman:
It couldn't be because Pfizer and Moderna made billions of dollars off of their vaccines. You are so naive.
Percy:
We still don't know what your point is.

Are you so naive that you don't understand that people can be motivated by money?
Kleinman:
I realize this is difficult for you to understand but this is a contrast between what Trump wanted to do and what Cuomo did.
Percy:
I think you must have arguments going on in your head that you're not letting anyone else in on. No one has any idea why you've launched into this Trump/Cuomo comparison.

I know it is difficult for you to understand but Trump wanted to send a hospital ship to New York to alleviate the pressure their hospitals were experiencing with covid. Cuomo sent covid patients to nursing homes where people already had many comorbidities causing thousands of people to die. I think New York should pay back Trump's cruelty by trying to throw him in jail. Cuomo should get a medal.
Kleinman:
I realize it is hard for you to see the obvious, but a well-fed population is healthier than a starving population.
Percy:
Many things seem obvious to conspiracy theorists.

You have your conspiracy theories and I have mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1017 by Percy, posted 04-23-2023 8:28 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1021 by Percy, posted 04-24-2023 2:28 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1020 of 1088 (910466)
04-24-2023 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1018 by Percy
04-24-2023 9:05 AM


Re: Excess Mortality
Percy:
Here again is the excess mortality graph for the US from 1/5/2020 until 2/26/2023. Up to this point there has not been a decline into negative numbers that would balance the excess deaths prior to now. If claims that the excess deaths were mostly people who would have died within a couple years or so anyway, that they just died a little prematurely because of covid, then the rest of this year should see this number decline deep into the negative numbers. We'll just watch and see:
Watch and see what?
Percy:
Here's a mask chart from December of 2020 showing new covid cases per 100,000 versus whether the states had mask mandates or not:

Do you think that a reduction of 2500 cases per 100,000 people to 1500 cases per 100,000 people in a month is a significant reduction? And that reduction can be attributed solely to masks?
Percy:
Only southern states managed to maintain low covid rates without a mask mandate, which makes sense given their greater ability to spend time outdoors. The sole exception is New Hampshire where most of the population lives in the southern part of the state and often follows Massachusetts lead, which did have mask mandates. I can vouch for the fact that in grocery stores (the most crowded place I usually visit) the mask wearing rate was around 80% during covid peaks.

The second bivalent booster should be available in pharmacies here soon, and we'll be signing up when they are.
Get as many vaccines and boosters as you want, especially if you can get somebody else to pay for them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1018 by Percy, posted 04-24-2023 9:05 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1023 by Percy, posted 04-24-2023 4:20 PM Kleinman has replied

  
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