COVID vaccine works - we're saved!

Kleinman:

---

Some people can't be persuaded by physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence. Fear has taken over their thinking.

AZPaul3:

---

Most knowledgeable people will not be persuaded by faulty Kleinman mathematics. We know whatever you present is bogus.
​
On that, with all your supposed expertise in physics, you still cling to a fantasy ghost as your emotional thumb to suck. Your intellect is broken.

---

---

AZPaul3 will now point out the faulty mathematics I've presented in these papers that describe descent with modification and adaptation which includes an explanation of why Covid vaccines are not 100% effective.
For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
And for multiple simultaneous selection pressures:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
Do your best AZPaul3, which is nothing. This mathematics was checked by experts and they published these papers. Go ahead, complain to the editors and publishers of Statistics in Medicine and to Retraction Watch – Tracking retractions as a window into the scientific process and see if you can get anywhere. You won't.

Kleinman:

---

AZPaul3 will now point out the faulty mathematics I've presented in these papers ...

AZPaul3:

---

Naw. That's already been done on this site and others across the internet where you were kicked out for being an ignorant ass. No use re-inventing the wheel.

---

---

AZPaul3 knows how to be ignorant and not be kicked out. Let's see if he can refute the correct mathematics that describes descent with modification and adaptation.
For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
For multiple simultaneous selection pressures:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
AZPaul3 likes to go round and round.

Kleinman:

---

Now we know what you think is a significant effect of a mask mandate.

Percy:

---

It isn't what I think that matters. What matters is whether there's sufficient evidence to form a consensus among health authorities about the efficacy of masks.
​
No one is talking mask mandates but you. What I've said repeatedly is that balancing personal freedom against public safety is a tough call.

---

---

Which authorities? Do you mean authorities like Anthony Fauci who told Joe Biden that getting vaccinated prevents you from spreading the disease? Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. That's what the "authorities" gave us this time.

Kleinman:

---

And you have less of an understanding of comorbidities.

Percy:

---

That's what you always say about everything. Do even you believe you?

---

---

Percy, tell us what you know about comorbidities. If someone has cancer or heart disease, and covid and dies, what is his cause of death?

Kleinman:

---

All you do is post a graph that show that a mask mandate had no significant effect on the spread of Covid...

Percy:

---

I think you have your eyes closed.

---

---

Let's open our eyes and take a look again at the graph you posted. Why in July is the spread of covid twice as high in counties where people wear masks than in counties where people aren't wearing masks?

Kleinman:

---

...and claim that people that have a different viewpoint than you should not have input on societal healthcare.

Percy:

---

Are you going to tell us what religions you think should be setting health policy?

---

---

Anyone can have input, even someone so ill-prepared and confused like you.

Kleinman:

---

Next, Percy is going to tell us that Pfizer and Moderna didn't make a fortune off of Covid vaccine. Percy, you have no idea how pharmaceutical companies work. You are so naive.

Percy:

---

Do you realize how absurd you sound? You're calling naive something no one said but you.

---

---

That's the reason you are so naive. You don't understand that vaccinations can be a very profitable business. Then Tangle can start a thread that tells us we are all saved while Pfizer and Moderna are laughing all the way to the bank.

Kleinman:

---

Did you watch the video of a physician/legislator who reports that Covid data was being overemphasized by how it was being reported on death certificates?

Percy:

---

I did look up Scott Jensen. He's an anti-vaxxer who claims covid deaths are overstated because many had comorbidities that would have caused their deaths within two or three years anyway.

---

---

I had never heard of Scott Jensen until I saw this video. Now you make an accusation that he is an anti-vaxxer. Post a quote from him to support your claim. For some reason, I think you won't because he never made any such statement. Try supporting your argument with something other than false accusations.

Kleinman:

---

It couldn't be because Pfizer and Moderna made billions of dollars off of their vaccines. You are so naive.

Percy:

---

We still don't know what your point is.

---

---

Are you so naive that you don't understand that people can be motivated by money?

Kleinman:

---

I realize this is difficult for you to understand but this is a contrast between what Trump wanted to do and what Cuomo did.

Percy:

---

I think you must have arguments going on in your head that you're not letting anyone else in on. No one has any idea why you've launched into this Trump/Cuomo comparison.

---

---

I know it is difficult for you to understand but Trump wanted to send a hospital ship to New York to alleviate the pressure their hospitals were experiencing with covid. Cuomo sent covid patients to nursing homes where people already had many comorbidities causing thousands of people to die. I think New York should pay back Trump's cruelty by trying to throw him in jail. Cuomo should get a medal.

Kleinman:

---

I realize it is hard for you to see the obvious, but a well-fed population is healthier than a starving population.

Percy:

---

Many things seem obvious to conspiracy theorists.

---

---

You have your conspiracy theories and I have mine.

Percy:

---

Here again is the excess mortality graph for the US from 1/5/2020 until 2/26/2023. Up to this point there has not been a decline into negative numbers that would balance the excess deaths prior to now. If claims that the excess deaths were mostly people who would have died within a couple years or so anyway, that they just died a little prematurely because of covid, then the rest of this year should see this number decline deep into the negative numbers. We'll just watch and see:

---

Watch and see what?

Percy:

---

Here's a mask chart from December of 2020 showing new covid cases per 100,000 versus whether the states had mask mandates or not:
​

---

Do you think that a reduction of 2500 cases per 100,000 people to 1500 cases per 100,000 people in a month is a significant reduction? And that reduction can be attributed solely to masks?

Percy:

---

Only southern states managed to maintain low covid rates without a mask mandate, which makes sense given their greater ability to spend time outdoors. The sole exception is New Hampshire where most of the population lives in the southern part of the state and often follows Massachusetts lead, which did have mask mandates. I can vouch for the fact that in grocery stores (the most crowded place I usually visit) the mask wearing rate was around 80% during covid peaks.
​
The second bivalent booster should be available in pharmacies here soon, and we'll be signing up when they are.

---

Get as many vaccines and boosters as you want, especially if you can get somebody else to pay for them.

Kleinman:

---

Which authorities?

Percy:

---

Health authorities at the federal, state and local levels.

---

---

Why don't you name them?

Kleinman:

---

Do you mean authorities like Anthony Fauci who told Joe Biden that getting vaccinated prevents you from spreading the disease?

Percy:

---

The closest I could find to Fauci saying anything like this was on CBS's "Face the Nation" back in May of 2021:

​

Anthony Fauci:

---

So even though there are breakthrough infections with vaccinated people, almost always the people are asymptomatic and the level of virus is so low it makes it extremely unlikely — not impossible but very, very low likelihood — that they’re going to transmit it.

---

---

---

That was close enough for Biden to get it wrong.

Kleinman:

---

Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

Percy:

---

In the case of covid, the disease killed nearly .4% of the country (1,129,573 at last count) while the vaccine killed almost no one while preventing innumerable deaths. There were nine known deaths due to rare blood clots caused by the J&J vaccine (Posts mischaracterize CDC data on COVID-19 vaccine deaths | AP News), and there were undoubtedly more, but that's what I could find. Even if there were as many as 100 deaths due to the vaccines, given that 665 million doses have been administered that's a death rate of .000015%, or about 25,000 times smaller than the covid death rate.
​
But even if there were some incredible number of deaths due to the vaccine, say 23,000 (the number of adverse effects reported to the CDC's VAERS system), given those 665 million doses that's a death rate of .003%, or nearly 200 times less than the covid death rate. So even if every reported adverse reaction were an actual death, the vaccine is still far safer than the disease.

---

---

You being an expert in comorbidities, how many of the 0.4% had comorbities?

Kleinman:

---

Percy, tell us what you know about comorbidities. If someone has cancer or heart disease, and covid and dies, what is his cause of death?

Percy:

---

I'm not a doctor or a medical examiner, but the amount of information you provide seems insufficient. Most commonly covid attacks the lungs and interferes with the uptake of oxygen, which is why so many ventilators were needed. Blood clots and cytokine storms can happen. Opportunistic diseases like pneumonia can play a role.
​
By the way, here is the CDC guidance for filling out death certificates for covid: Guidance for Certifying Deaths Due to
Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19).

---

---

So, you don't know how many people had comorbidities that died.

Kleinman:

---

Why in July is the spread of covid twice as high in counties where people wear masks than in counties where people aren't wearing masks?

Percy:

---

At the beginning of July the covid rate looks to be about three times as high in those counties that decided to adopt a mandate. The higher rate is probably why they adopted it. Within a couple weeks after adopting the mask mandate their case rate began declining and then fluctuated.
​
But in counties that adopted no mandate and though their case rate started from a much lower base, within a couple months it had exceeded that of the mandate counties and just kept climbing.
​
The article provides no information about which counties were involved, but I imagine the higher initial rate in the counties that eventually adopted mandates were more urban.​

---

---

Why did counties where people wore mask have twice the incidence of covid than those counties that didn't wear masks in July?

Percy:

---

I'm still wondering why you think societal health policies should be guided by the Bible, and about what other religions' holy books you would also permit.

---

Did I say that? Please post the quote. You won't because false accusations is your way of debate.

Kleinman:

---

That's the reason you are so naive. You don't understand that vaccinations can be a very profitable business. Then Tangle can start a thread that tells us we are all saved while Pfizer and Moderna are laughing all the way to the bank.

Percy:

---

Can you explain to us why you object to vaccine manufacturers making large profits? I question it, too, I'm just surprised to hear you making anti-capitalist comments. I guess it's okay for companies to make profits in areas you agree with, presumably areas like petroleum, mining, oil and gas exploration, gas-powered cars and coal-fired power plants, but not on things you disagree with like vaccines, masks, solar and wind power, etc.

---

---

I don't have a problem with companies making large profits. I have a problem with companies making large profits based on fear. Perhaps you can teach me about solar power since I have lived off grid for over 20 years and generate electricity using a solar system. I did this because the electric company wanted over $20,000 to bring the wires to my house. Why don't you tell us all about battery technology since you want everyone to have an electric car? Then we can know how ill-prepared on this subject you are as well.

Kleinman:

---

I had never heard of Scott Jensen until I saw this video.

Percy:

---

I'd never heard of him either. Since you'd never heard of him, what makes you think he's a reliable source of information? Just that he says things you agree with and wish were true?

---

---

I checked out if he was a physician and a state senator in Minnesota and both are true. I also know what it is to fill out a death certificate and the effect of comorbidities (which you don't understand).

Kleinman:

---

Now you make an accusation that he is an anti-vaxxer.

Percy:

---

During the COVID-19 pandemic, Jensen was known for his criticisms of COVID-19 lockdowns and promotion of COVID-19 anti-vaccination falsehoods.
...
Jensen aligned himself with the COVID-19 anti-vaccination movement. In May 2021, he sued the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services in an attempt to prevent children from receiving COVID-19 vaccinations. His fellow plaintiffs in the suit included anti-vaccine activist Simone Gold and the right-wing political organization America's Frontline Doctors (AFD). AFD had attracted notoriety for its promotion of false and misleading COVID-19 claims. The complaint, filed in federal court in Alabama, falsely called the COVID-19 vaccines a dangerous "experimental biological agent".[48] The affidavit claimed that "it would be reckless to subject anyone in that age group to the experimental COVID-19 vaccine", and Jensen said that giving children the vaccine "would violate his oath as a doctor and place him in an untenable position".In a later interview, Jensen said he had "quietly" been a member of AFD and had been unaware of the involvement of the group's founder, Gold, in the January 6 United States Capitol attack. He also said he did not read the whole petition before signing it. In the same interview, Jensen said, against medical consensus, that he does not recommend COVID-19 vaccines for "young and healthy" people. He was banned from TikTok in April 2021 and restricted from advertising on Facebook in July 2021 for violating community guidelines barring the promotion of COVID-19 misinformation.

---

---

So you don't have any quotes from Jensen supporting your claim. All you have is his criticism of using an untested vaccine on children. And it turns out that covid has little effect on children. You are very sloppy in your research and your false accusations.

Kleinman:

---

Are you so naive that you don't understand that people can be motivated by money?

Percy:

---

You're arguing with arguments you made up yourself, not with anything I said.

---

---

You really are naive. You should see how drug representatives work. When I was training and in the first 10 years of practice, they were commonly seen. Some doctors made inappropriate decisions based on the influence of the drug representatives. Now they go directly to patients through advertising and who knows what these drug companies are doing to the CDC and FDA. They certainly have the money to corrupt these organizations. But you know them, they would never do such a thing.

Kleinman:

---

Cuomo sent covid patients to nursing homes where people already had many comorbidities causing thousands of people to die.

Percy:

---

You do realize, I hope, that you're getting this backwards again.

---

---

Go ahead, and put your spin on it. While you are at it, put your spin on the thousands of deaths he caused.

Kleinman:

---

You have your conspiracy theories and I have mine.

Percy:

---

No, only you. I think that for some people conspiracy theories trigger something in the brain that makes them irresistible. The conspiracy theories become obsessions, almost an addiction like gambling.

---

---

Oh right. You got your anti-vaxxers, and anti-electric car people, and your anti-science people, and your anti-global warming people, and your anti-health care people,... Just go get your booster shot paid for by other people and everything will be all right.

Kleinman:

---

Watch and see what?

Percy:

---

Watch and see what happens with excess deaths for the rest of the year by revisiting that graph every so often. If the claims that people who died would have died anyway within a couple years or so then the excess mortality rate should dive over the course of this year.

---

---

You don't even know how comorbidities affect death rates. How many people died with covid had comorbidities?

Kleinman:

---

Do you think that a reduction of 2500 cases per 100,000 people to 1500 cases per 100,000 people in a month is a significant reduction? And that reduction can be attributed solely to masks?

Percy:

---

All that can be established with these kinds of studies is correlation. In this case the chart indicates that a correlation likely exists between mask mandates and lower covid case rates.
​
Reducing the case rate by 1000 per 100,000 per month seems very significant. In a state of 10 million that's a reduction of 100,000 cases per month, and with a covid death rate of, say, 1% (an optimistic figure for 2020), that would be 12,000 fewer deaths over the course of a year, also a very significant number.​

---

---

Who needs studies, your mind is already made up. What about when the death rates are higher with masks than without masks? What's your spin on that?

Kleinman:

---

Get as many vaccines and boosters as you want, especially if you can get somebody else to pay for them.

Percy:

---

A society that vaccinates as many people as possible for covid makes it less likely that covid will spread, creating a healthier society. The less likely that, for example, the people you're walking by on the street or sitting nearby you in a restaurant are infected, the less likely it is that you'll be infected yourself.
​
I just came back from my second bivalent shot. I don't how severe the latest variant is, but I'd like to avoid catching covid if I can. The US is still experiencing about 14,000 cases and 250 deaths per week. The case rate is severely underreported because almost everyone now uses home tests and don't usually report a positive test. Probably only covid cases serious enough to force the seeking of medical treatment make it into the statistics these days.

---

---

You should go to work for the drug companies.

Kleinman:

---

Why don't you name them?

Percy:

---

You want me to name all the health authorities at the federal, state or local level? Why? Can't you just look up any who interest you on the Internet? For instance, Google "director department health ca" and you'll see that it's Tomás J. Aragón. Anyway, yeah, guys like him at the federal, state and local levels, they're the health authorities.

---

---

Just put Anthony Fauci at the top of the list.

Kleinman:

---

That was close enough for Biden to get it wrong.

Percy:

---

I don't know why you're rehashing this, but as I said the first time, I think Biden got it wrong at the CNN Town Hall all by himself.

---

---

You never did explain why Biden didn't correct himself. All you did was give a us one of his long speeches where he never mentioned his error.

Kleinman:

---

You being an expert in comorbidities, how many of the 0.4% had comorbidities?
...
So, you don't know how many people had comorbidities that died.

Percy:

---

Here's a link to that information, Comorbidities and other conditions, but can't you look up this kind of stuff yourself? And why are you so obsessed with comorbidities. I'm sorry you don't like that you weren't the first to bring it up, but you're going to have to live with it because that fact is embedded in the thread and isn't going away.

---

---

Do you think any of the thousands of people that died from covid at New York nursing homes had any comorbidities?

Kleinman:

---

Why did counties where people wore mask have twice the incidence of covid than those counties that didn't wear masks in July?

Percy:

---

The mask mandate in that graph began July 1. Do you have some kind of expectation that implementation, compliance and effect should be instantaneous? It looks like the rate continued rising for another couple weeks or so, then began falling, then fluctuated in a narrow range, while in the counties with no mandate the rate just kept climbing and climbing.

---

---

Why did they draw their line for mask usage before July?

Kleinman:

---

Did I say that? Please post the quote. You won't because false accusations is your way of debate.

Percy:

---

Ironic accusation there. I had expressed the thought that a society that makes the good health of all its citizens a goal was better off, and you replied skeptically, so I asked what you thought society's goal should be. In reply in Message 965 you said, "Read the Bible and you can find out."
​
How many times are you going to pull this "I never said that" thing about things that are right there in your old posts.

---

---

Any time you make a false accusation about what I said, I'm going to ask you to post the quote.

Kleinman:

---

I don't have a problem with companies making large profits. I have a problem with companies making large profits based on fear.

Percy:

---

So you're against profits made on guns?

---

---

Every time the issue of gun control comes up, there is an increase in the demand for guns. You still haven't told us if you think a person has a right of self defense.

Kleinman:

---

Perhaps you can teach me about solar power...

Percy:

---

Why would I do that? What I asked you about was which industry's profits are okay by you. Since fear seems to the relevant factor to you, are solar and wind power profits okay with you even though they're based on fear of climate change? How about profits on sunscreen since they're based on fear of skin cancer?

---

---

Don't worry, I'm not going to ask you to teach me about solar power. My system works just fine. Fear is not your enemy when it is appropriate, it is the emotion that kicks in when you have to defend yourself. It is an emotion that can be exploited falsely by businesses to market their products.

Kleinman:

---

I checked out if he was a physician and a state senator in Minnesota and both are true.

Percy:

---

And he said things you agree with. You never checked whether they were true because you agree with him because you're as wrong as he is.
​
I doubt that many who are anti-vaxxers and anti-science describe themselves that way. They instead raise false concerns about vaccine safety and make false claims that they aren't needed. You and Jensen both quack exactly like the anti-vax ducks you are.
​
Jensen got banned on TikTok for pushing false anti-vax info. He hasn't gotten vaccinated even though he's 69. He seems to be a poor judge of people because his fellow plaintiff in the lawsuit to block vaccinations for those between 12 and 15 was arrested in the January 6th insurrection. He's a fellow traveler with prominent people in the anti-vax world. He won't state he's anti-science or anti-vax, only going as far as describing himself as a contrarian and skeptic, and you seem to be buying his bit. If he told you he doesn't drink while having a beer you'd probably believe him.

---

---

He said things that I've experienced and know to be true. Physicians can change the data by the way they write the cause of death on a death certificate. You don't understand this. That's why I continue to press you on this issue of comorbidities and causes of death. I've experienced how drug companies work and they have the money to corrupt government officials so they can sell more of their drugs. They use this to sell their product. Do you know that coronavirus has been around for years, it has been associated with common colds.And you take being banned from a Chinese-owned TikTok as an indication that he's an anti-vaxxer. You are naive.

Kleinman:

---

Now they go directly to patients through advertising and who knows what these drug companies are doing to the CDC and FDA. They certainly have the money to corrupt these organizations. But you know them, they would never do such a thing.

Percy:

---

You're just spouting more conspiracy nonsense. When you find evidence of wrongdoing let us know.

---

---

So you think the drug companies don't advertise? You don't understand why they do it and are really naive.

Kleinman:

---

Go ahead, and put your spin on it. While you are at it, put your spin on the thousands of deaths he caused.

Percy:

---

The thing I can't figure out is how after finally getting it right you went right back to getting it wrong. Cuomo didn't confine patients in nursing homes. He prevented nursing homes from using covid status in making admission decisions.

---

---

Next, you are going to tell us that thousands of people didn't die because of Cuomo's policy and that Cuomo is still the governor of New York.

Kleinman:

---

Oh right. You got your anti-vaxxers, and anti-electric car people, and your anti-science people, and your anti-global warming people, and your anti-health care people,...

Percy:

---

It isn't being anti-something that makes someone a conspiracy theorist. It's when the idea of something has such strong emotional appeal that it overwhelms the ability to objectively assess evidence. Conspiracy theorists seem to be particularly vulnerable to YouTube videos.

---

---

You are the one that rushed out and got a covid booster shot. And you are the one that wants to put sanctions on people that don't get vaccinated. You want to force people to get electric cars when the infrastructure can't support it, people like you throw the anti-science accusation around but can't explain the Kishony and Lenski experiments, and scream about global warming and the sea level rising while Obama buys a house on the beach.

Kleinman:

---

Just go get your booster shot paid for by other people and everything will be all right.

Percy:

---

Our society as a whole paid for it, so thank you everyone! Remember, the person I end up not infecting could be you!

---

---

I hope society appreciates your gratitude because they are paying for it with higher food and fuel prices. New Hampshire gets pretty cold in the winter, how was your heating bill?

Kleinman:

---

You don't even know how comorbidities affect death rates. How many people died with covid had comorbidities?

Percy:

---

I gave you a link to the info a couple messages ago (Comorbidities and other conditions), but what's important is excess deaths. If Jensen's claim is correct that many who died of covid whould have died anyway of other causes within two or three years then that will show up as a dip in excess deaths into the significantly negative.

---

---

Why don't you post the number of people that died with covid and also had comorbidities?

Kleinman:

---

Who needs studies, your mind is already made up.

Percy:

---

I follow the evidence.

---

---

What does the evidence say is the number of people that died with covid and had comorbidities?

Kleinman:

---

What about when the death rates are higher with masks than without masks? What's your spin on that?

Percy:

---

That would be counterintuitive. What would be the mechanism for such an effect? Do you have links to studies showing this? Zacharias Fögen speculates in his paper A mechanism by which facemasks contribute to the COVID-19 case fatality rate about a "Fögen effect". One has to wonder about someone who names an effect for himself. There's also Correlation Between Mask Compliance and COVID-19 Outcomes in Europe by Beny Spira.
​
But a review (Scientific evidence shows that mask-wearing is effective at limiting community transmission; claims that face masks increase mortality are based on flawed correlation studies) found both studies to be seriously flawed.
​
But take a look at the papers and see what you think.

---

---

Aren't you able to post the data to support your argument? You posted a graph that shows an increased incidence of covid infection in people wearing masks than in people not wearing masks. Why doesn't it coincide with your intuition?

Kleinman:

---

You should go to work for the drug companies.

Percy:

---

I think you place a higher value on being right than on public health.

---

---

You could think that, but you would be wrong. I think I've spent a little more time and effort on the study of healthcare than you have. I didn't do this so that I would hurt people.

Percy:

---

An Interview with Dr. Anthony Fauci by David Wallace-Wells appears in today's New York Times magazine. It is lengthy. Here are some excerpts. Sorry for the length, I tried to focus on the key issues, but this is much, much shorter than the full interview:

---

Percy, you completely miss the point. Aside from the fact that Fauci gave extremely bad advice about vaccinations that Joe Biden passed along, advice which any medical student that has studied pathology would understand that vaccines don't stop the possibility of being infected or the possibility that a vaccinated person can spread the infection. This was done by the "top medical expert" in our government.What you do as a worshipper of Fauci (and "government experts") is label someone who questions the efficacy and safety of a vaccine, an "anti-vaxxer". This is not only wrong but shuts down the discussion from people that may have something to offer in the situation. Or perhaps you think that the only people that have something to offer are government employees? Fauci has no idea why so many people don't listen to him. Perhaps it is because he actually doesn't understand the problem he is supposed to be dealing with. It doesn't take an expert in psychodynamics to see this. What Fauci does have is the power to allocate grant money, and anyone trying to get that money had better not criticize what Fauci says. You are extremely naive Percy.

Kleinman:

---

Just put Anthony Fauci at the top of the list.

Percy:

---

Fauci was director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and was certainly the most visible health authority during the pandemic, but he doesn't have dictatorial powers, only the power to influence CDC recommendations, some legally binding on state and local health officials and some not.

---

---

The power that Fauci has was used extremely poorly. He misled Biden about vaccines and Fauci never corrected his blunder which any third-year medical student could understand was a blunder.

Kleinman:

---

You never did explain why Biden didn't correct himself. All you did was give a us one of his long speeches where he never mentioned his error.

Percy:

---

We've been over this. I agree with you that Biden got it wrong. I couldn't find anything in the news about a correction and expressed the wish that one had been issued. And you're right that in a later speech where he got the facts straight he did not mention that at the CNN Town Hall earlier that year he had spoken incorrectly. Why do you wish to rehash this?

---

---

Fauci has not corrected his blunder. And then Fauci is confused by the psychodynamics of a large part of the population.

Kleinman:

---

Do you think any of the thousands of people that died from covid at New York nursing homes had any comorbidities?

Percy:

---

Undoubtedly, but what point are you trying to make?

---

---

If you don't understand the effects of comorbidities on a superimposed respiratory infection, you won't ever understand this. What happened with all the expert advisors that Cuomo had? Didn't any of his expert advisors understand that there might be a problem putting covid patients in with people with comorbidities?

Kleinman:

---

Why did they draw their line for mask usage before July?

Percy:

---

I think you may be interpreting the graph incorrectly. Here it is again for reference:

​

​

The vertical line above the word July represents July 1. The yellow line indicates counties that before July 1 had no mask mandate but that implemented one beginning July 1.

​

The maroon line indicates counties that prior to July 1 had no mask mandate and after July 1 still had no mask mandate.

​

Within a couple weeks after July 1 the case rate in counties with a mandate ceased rising and began fluctuating within a narrow range, while the case rate in counties without a mandate just kept rising and rising.

---

---

Explain why the yellow line is labeled "Counties with a mandate" and that line starts at the same time as the maroon line. And why is the yellow line higher than the maroon line from before July until almost October?

Kleinman:

---

Any time you make a false accusation about what I said, I'm going to ask you to post the quote.

Percy:

---

I think you should defend yourself against all false accusations, but in the case of you saying, "Read the Bible and you can find out," it's right there in black and white in your Message 965.
​
What point is it that you're trying to make. Concerning how societies should set public health policies you said people should read their Bible. What did you mean by that? Do you think the holy books of other religions should also inform public health policies or only Christianity's.​

---

---

WHy don't you read that quote in context? Do you think you can make society generous by writing a law? You are very naive.

Kleinman:

---

Every time the issue of gun control comes up, there is an increase in the demand for guns. You still haven't told us if you think a person has a right of self defense.

Percy:

---

There *is* a thread for that topic. We know you know about it because you earlier threatened to trash that thread, too.

---

---

Why are you so afraid that somebody might say something that counters your naive thinking?

Kleinman:

---

Fear is not your enemy when it is appropriate,...

Percy:

---

What are you saying? That fear of guns is appropriate while fear of deadly disease is not?

---

---

Hasn't anyone explained the sympathetic nervous system to you?

Kleinman:

---

it is the emotion that kicks in when you have to defend yourself. It is an emotion that can be exploited falsely by businesses to market their products.

Percy:

---

You're describing the gun industry to a T. Do you think their profits based on fear are appropriate?

---

---

I understand your fear of guns. What you don't understand is that some people want to have a gun in order to defend themselves. You still haven't told us whether you think that people have a right to defend themselves.

Kleinman:

---

He said things that I've experienced and know to be true.

Percy:

---

You think many things that aren't true.

---

---

Sure, I check things out. I've learned that so-called experts don't always get it right.

Kleinman:

---

Physicians can change the data by the way they write the cause of death on a death certificate. You don't understand this.

Percy:

---

This is so simple that even children under 6 can understand it. What's missing is any support for your claim that physicians are purposefully lying on death certificates on a large scale country-wide.

---

---

I posted a video of a physician and a Minnesota state senator that questioned the cause of death data. And you won't post how many people had comorbidities and died with covid. Why shouldn't I say that you are lying about this because you won't post that data?

Kleinman:

---

That's why I continue to press you on this issue of comorbidities and causes of death. I've experienced how drug companies work and they have the money to corrupt government officials so they can sell more of their drugs. They use this to sell their product.

Percy:

---

It's a pretty safe bet that there's corruption everywhere out there that we don't know about, but until you have evidence all you've got is a baseless conspiracy theory. Maybe what you're making up is actually true, but you still need evidence.

---

---

It would never enter your mind that corrupted people would work to hide the data that reveals their corruption. You are naive.

Kleinman:

---

Do you know that coronavirus has been around for years, it has been associated with common colds.

Percy:

---

Yes. And your point is?

---

---

Has anyone died with coronavirus and also had comorbidities before the covid episode?

Kleinman:

---

And you take being banned from a Chinese-owned TikTok as an indication that he's an anti-vaxxer. You are naive.

Percy:

---

He was banned from TikTok for promoting falsehoods about vaccines. From TikTok bans Minnesota gubernatorial candidate Scott Jensen over COVID-19 misinformation:

(FOX 9) - TikTok removed Minnesota gubernatorial candidate Scott Jensen's account for spreading misinformation on COVID-19 guidelines, a spokesperson confirmed to FOX 9.

But he's a physician and a state legislator with views you agree with, so to you he couldn't possibly be wrong and hang the facts.

---

---

You still haven't posted his quote. But that's your modus operandi. You post a quote from someone that doesn't say what Scott Jensen said, and that's enough for you.

Kleinman:

---

So you think the drug companies don't advertise? You don't understand why they do it and are really naive.

Percy:

---

You are once again replying to something that only you said.

---

---

Are you really that naive that people do things to influence you.

Kleinman:

---

Next, you are going to tell us that thousands of people didn't die because of Cuomo's policy and that Cuomo is still the governor of New York.

Percy:

---

I'll just continue to repeat what is true. Cuomo didn't confine patients in nursing homes. He prevented nursing homes from using covid status in making admission decisions.

---

---

Cuomo prevented people from making decisions that could have prevented thousands of deaths no matter how you want to spin it.

Kleinman:

---

You are the one that rushed out and got a covid booster shot.

Percy:

---

You sure sound like an anti-vaxxer.
​
The evidence suggests that the booster is prudent for our age group, especially since we plan to attend a large wedding and then travel over the next couple months.

---

---

You hear what you want to hear. You are ripe to get a booster for the booster. Does that make you saved twice over?

Kleinman:

---

And you are the one that wants to put sanctions on people that don't get vaccinated.

Percy:

---

You are once again responding to something that only you said.

---

---

Haven't you figured out yet that both vaccinated and un-vaccinated people can spread the virus? We should lock everyone up in solitary confinement. That would solve the problem.

Kleinman:

---

You want to force people to get electric cars when the infrastructure can't support it,...

Percy:

---

Again, this is something that only you said.

---

---

Don't you know that electric cars will save the planet?

Kleinman:

---

...people like you throw the anti-science accusation around but can't explain the Kishony and Lenski experiments,...

Percy:

---

If you don't want to be perceived as anti-science then stop behaving like you are. Try displaying a measured scientific temperament that gives fair and balanced consideration to evidence instead of going off the deep end with endless false accusations and mischaracterizations and conspiracy theory advocacy.

---

---

Oh, pardon me, I didn't know that bringing up the laws of physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence was misbehaving. I'll have to learn that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals and say, "Everybody knows that" because that is how biologists practice science.

Kleinman:

---

...and scream about global warming and the sea level rising while Obama buys a house on the beach.

Percy:

---

The elevation of the house itself is only 8 feet. On the surface it doesn't seem like a prudent purchase, but I don't know any of the weather related history.

---

---

It's a typical example of "do as I say, not as I do".

Percy:

---

I gave you a link to the info a couple messages ago (Comorbidities and other conditions), but what's important is excess deaths. If Jensen's claim is correct that many who died of covid whould have died anyway of other causes within two or three years then that will show up as a dip in excess deaths into the significantly negative.

Kleinman:

---

Why don't you post the number of people that died with covid and also had comorbidities?

Percy:

---

Like I said, I already provided a link to that information. But that information by itself can't tell you whether they would have died anyway within 2 or 3 years. The best information for that would be excess death data, which we'll have to wait for.

---

---

---

You still refuse to post a quote from your links that shows how many people died with covid and also had comorbidities. Should a person with terminal cancer and dies be reported as dying from covid, or should covid be considered a contributing factor?

Kleinman:

---

What does the evidence say is the number of people that died with covid and had comorbidities?

Percy:

---

You have the information. If you think it's relevant then tell us.

---

---

You posted the links. Post quotes from your links that you think are relevant.

Kleinman:

---

What about when the death rates are higher with masks than without masks? What's your spin on that?

Percy:

---

That would be counterintuitive. What would be the mechanism for such an effect? Do you have links to studies showing this? Zacharias Fögen speculates in his paper A mechanism by which facemasks contribute to the COVID-19 case fatality rate about a "Fögen effect". One has to wonder about someone who names an effect for himself. There's also Correlation Between Mask Compliance and COVID-19 Outcomes in Europe by Beny Spira.
​
But a review (Scientific evidence shows that mask-wearing is effective at limiting community transmission; claims that face masks increase mortality are based on flawed correlation studies) found both studies to be seriously flawed.
​
But take a look at the papers and see what you think.

Kleinman:

---

Aren't you able to post the data to support your argument?

Percy:

---

I don't have an argument. I provided a few links and suggested you look at them to see what you think. Do the papers describe the same issues that you're concerned about.

---

---

---

---

If you think you have something relevant in your links, why don't your quote it? Why are incidence rates higher for several months for people wearing masks when compared to people not wearing masks? You posted the graph.

Kleinman:

---

You posted a graph that shows an increased incidence of covid infection in people wearing masks than in people not wearing masks.

Percy:

---

No, it wasn't me. If such a graph was posted here I don't recall it.

---

---

You make me think of an old joke. There are two signs of Alzheimer's, one sign is the loss of memory, I can't remember what the other one is.

Kleinman:

---

You could think that, but you would be wrong. I think I've spent a little more time and effort on the study of healthcare than you have. I didn't do this so that I would hurt people.

Percy:

---

You don't *want* to hurt people, I'm sure, but that's what you're doing.

---

---

Children always think I'm try to hurt them when I give them a shot.

xongsmith:

---

I would think that it took from July to October for those mandated counties to learn how to use masks. Perhaps at the beginning they were isolated from populations and never got exposed and then looked over at the first group. They start to see an increase in their group and said "Uh oh, it's happening to us to now! - we better do something!". The first group had a huge increase, then a sudden, unexplained drop then a gradual increase, then an overwhelming increase. we dont know the rural-urban split of the counties. the real question is what was going on with the first maroon group. did they panic and just stay home? What year was this?

---

You have a problem with that argument. Why would a population not wearing masks have a lower incidence of covid than a population wearing masks improperly? Wouldn't wearing a mask improperly be similar to not wearing a mask and lead to similar dissemination of the disease? As for the "large" increase seen in the non-mask-wearing population, the increase is to about 30 new covid patients per 100,000 per day for a few days drops down fairly rapidly in about a month in the May/June time period. Then you see a rise in incidence for mask wearers to about 20 new covid patients per 100,000 per day for a few days in July while non-mask wearers see a much slower increase in incidence. It wouldn't surprise me at all if social distancing helps much more than wearing a mask. But that variable is not included in the graph. My suggestion to people not wanting to contract air-borne disease is to try to not let people cough, sneeze, or breath on them. I have used this strategy for years when seeing patients with infectious diseases in the close confines of an examination room and it seems to have worked ok. But. wear a mask if it makes you feel more secure.

xongsmith:

---

Side note:
It is so hard for my eyes to read things with white backgrounds. the orange line is almost like it was made with invisible ink.

---

Sorry to hear that. I tried a little experiment by copying the image and then pasting it into Paint. I then used the fill tool and set it to fill an area with light blue (if that color doesn't work, choose another color). Not only is the graph magnified but when the white areas are colored light blue, it is much easier to see the plot lines.

Percy:

---

An Interview with Dr. Anthony Fauci by David Wallace-Wells appears in today's New York Times magazine. It is lengthy. Here are some excerpts. Sorry for the length, I tried to focus on the key issues, but this is much, much shorter than the full interview:

Kleinman:

---

Percy, you completely miss the point.

Percy:

---

There was no point to miss. That message was informational with excerpts from an interview with Dr. Fauci that appeared in today's New York Times Magazine. It wasn't addressed to anyone in particular, just the thread in general. I posted it today because it appeared in the paper today. It wasn't a response to anything you or anyone said.

---

---

---

Whatever

Kleinman:

---

Aside from the fact that Fauci gave extremely bad advice about vaccinations that Joe Biden passed along, advice which any medical student that has studied pathology would understand that vaccines don't stop the possibility of being infected or the possibility that a vaccinated person can spread the infection. This was done by the "top medical expert" in our government.

Percy:

---

Repeating mistaken claims over and over doesn't make them any less mistaken.

---

---

This incorrect notion came from somewhere. Joe Biden made the claim. Where do you think Joe Biden gets his expert advice?

Kleinman:

---

What you do as a worshipper of Fauci (and "government experts") is label someone who questions the efficacy and safety of a vaccine, an "anti-vaxxer".

Percy:

---

I don't understand why anti-vaxxers like you and Jensen try to disguise the fact that you're anti-vaxxers.

---

---

Percy is an expert in vaccines.

Kleinman:

---

This is not only wrong but shuts down the discussion from people that may have something to offer in the situation.

Percy:

---

You have not as yet demonstrated any interest in discussion in this thread. Your attitude seems to be, "If I can cast the best insults and make the best distortions then my position will prevail."

---

---

Try to explain how comorbidities affect the data for the death rate from covid.

Kleinman:

---

Or perhaps you think that the only people that have something to offer are government employees?

Percy:

---

You're the only one saying things like this.

---

---

Go ahead, take whatever advice Fauci has to offer.

Kleinman:

---

Fauci has no idea why so many people don't listen to him. Perhaps it is because he actually doesn't understand the problem he is supposed to be dealing with.

Percy:

---

That's what you say about everyone. You rarely make any actual arguments, just cast insults, accusations of various lacks, and make mischaracterizations of what people say or believe. You're a font of falsity.

---

---

Believe what you want to believe.

Kleinman:

---

It doesn't take an expert in psychodynamics to see this. What Fauci does have is the power to allocate grant money, and anyone trying to get that money had better not criticize what Fauci says. You are extremely naive Percy.

Percy:

---

Fauci left his position last December, and you're again spouting baseless conspiracy theories.

---

---

There goes Fauci's power.

Kleinman:

---

I have two motives for studying evolution.

dwise1:

---

Then why didn't you study evolution? Everything you have written tells us that you never learned anything about the subject.

---

---

dwise1 will now explain the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments and why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutational step. You can do it dwise1. Just use the "at least one" and the multiplication rule for computing the probability of joint random events.

dwise1:

---

Sadly, you demonstrate yet again your complete and utter ignorance and stupidity.

---

Are you still having difficulty doing the mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments and explaining why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive step? Try again.