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Author Topic:   COVID vaccine works - we're saved!
Percy
Member
Posts: 22473
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 1021 of 1110 (910467)
04-24-2023 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1019 by Kleinman
04-24-2023 9:35 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
Which authorities?
Health authorities at the federal, state and local levels.
Do you mean authorities like Anthony Fauci who told Joe Biden that getting vaccinated prevents you from spreading the disease?
The closest I could find to Fauci saying anything like this was on CBS's "Face the Nation" back in May of 2021:
Anthony Fauci:
So even though there are breakthrough infections with vaccinated people, almost always the people are asymptomatic and the level of virus is so low it makes it extremely unlikely — not impossible but very, very low likelihood — that they’re going to transmit it.
Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.
In the case of covid, the disease killed nearly .4% of the country (1,129,573 at last count) while the vaccine killed almost no one while preventing innumerable deaths. There were nine known deaths due to rare blood clots caused by the J&J vaccine (Posts mischaracterize CDC data on COVID-19 vaccine deaths | AP News), and there were undoubtedly more, but that's what I could find. Even if there were as many as 100 deaths due to the vaccines, given that 665 million doses have been administered that's a death rate of .000015%, or about 25,000 times smaller than the covid death rate.
But even if there were some incredible number of deaths due to the vaccine, say 23,000 (the number of adverse effects reported to the CDC's VAERS system), given those 665 million doses that's a death rate of .003%, or nearly 200 times less than the covid death rate. So even if every reported adverse reaction were an actual death, the vaccine is still far safer than the disease.
Percy, tell us what you know about comorbidities. If someone has cancer or heart disease, and covid and dies, what is his cause of death?
I'm not a doctor or a medical examiner, but the amount of information you provide seems insufficient. Most commonly covid attacks the lungs and interferes with the uptake of oxygen, which is why so many ventilators were needed. Blood clots and cytokine storms can happen. Opportunistic diseases like pneumonia can play a role.
By the way, here is the CDC guidance for filling out death certificates for covid: Guidance for Certifying Deaths Due to
Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
.
Why in July is the spread of covid twice as high in counties where people wear masks than in counties where people aren't wearing masks?
At the beginning of July the covid rate looks to be about three times as high in those counties that decided to adopt a mandate. The higher rate is probably why they adopted it. Within a couple weeks after adopting the mask mandate their case rate began declining and then fluctuated.
But in counties that adopted no mandate and though their case rate started from a much lower base, within a couple months it had exceeded that of the mandate counties and just kept climbing.
The article provides no information about which counties were involved, but I imagine the higher initial rate in the counties that eventually adopted mandates were more urban.
I'm still wondering why you think societal health policies should be guided by the Bible, and about what other religions' holy books you would also permit.
That's the reason you are so naive. You don't understand that vaccinations can be a very profitable business. Then Tangle can start a thread that tells us we are all saved while Pfizer and Moderna are laughing all the way to the bank.
Can you explain to us why you object to vaccine manufacturers making large profits? I question it, too, I'm just surprised to hear you making anti-capitalist comments. I guess it's okay for companies to make profits in areas you agree with, presumably areas like petroleum, mining, oil and gas exploration, gas-powered cars and coal-fired power plants, but not on things you disagree with like vaccines, masks, solar and wind power, etc.
I had never heard of Scott Jensen until I saw this video.
I'd never heard of him either. Since you'd never heard of him, what makes you think he's a reliable source of information? Just that he says things you agree with and wish were true?
Now you make an accusation that he is an anti-vaxxer.
With respect to covid, yes, he is. From Wikipedia (Scott Jensen - Wikipedia(Minnesota_politician):
quote:
During the COVID-19 pandemic, Jensen was known for his criticisms of COVID-19 lockdowns and promotion of COVID-19 anti-vaccination falsehoods.
...
Jensen aligned himself with the COVID-19 anti-vaccination movement. In May 2021, he sued the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services in an attempt to prevent children from receiving COVID-19 vaccinations. His fellow plaintiffs in the suit included anti-vaccine activist Simone Gold and the right-wing political organization America's Frontline Doctors (AFD). AFD had attracted notoriety for its promotion of false and misleading COVID-19 claims. The complaint, filed in federal court in Alabama, falsely called the COVID-19 vaccines a dangerous "experimental biological agent".[48] The affidavit claimed that "it would be reckless to subject anyone in that age group to the experimental COVID-19 vaccine", and Jensen said that giving children the vaccine "would violate his oath as a doctor and place him in an untenable position".In a later interview, Jensen said he had "quietly" been a member of AFD and had been unaware of the involvement of the group's founder, Gold, in the January 6 United States Capitol attack. He also said he did not read the whole petition before signing it. In the same interview, Jensen said, against medical consensus, that he does not recommend COVID-19 vaccines for "young and healthy" people. He was banned from TikTok in April 2021 and restricted from advertising on Facebook in July 2021 for violating community guidelines barring the promotion of COVID-19 misinformation.
Are you so naive that you don't understand that people can be motivated by money?
You're arguing with arguments you made up yourself, not with anything I said.
Cuomo sent covid patients to nursing homes where people already had many comorbidities causing thousands of people to die.
You do realize, I hope, that you're getting this backwards again.
You have your conspiracy theories and I have mine.
No, only you. I think that for some people conspiracy theories trigger something in the brain that makes them irresistible. The conspiracy theories become obsessions, almost an addiction like gambling.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1019 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 9:35 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1022 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 4:07 PM Percy has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 354 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1022 of 1110 (910468)
04-24-2023 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1021 by Percy
04-24-2023 2:28 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Which authorities?
Percy:
Health authorities at the federal, state and local levels.

Why don't you name them?
Kleinman:
Do you mean authorities like Anthony Fauci who told Joe Biden that getting vaccinated prevents you from spreading the disease?
Percy:
The closest I could find to Fauci saying anything like this was on CBS's "Face the Nation" back in May of 2021:
Anthony Fauci:
So even though there are breakthrough infections with vaccinated people, almost always the people are asymptomatic and the level of virus is so low it makes it extremely unlikely — not impossible but very, very low likelihood — that they’re going to transmit it.


That was close enough for Biden to get it wrong.
Kleinman:
Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.
Percy:
In the case of covid, the disease killed nearly .4% of the country (1,129,573 at last count) while the vaccine killed almost no one while preventing innumerable deaths. There were nine known deaths due to rare blood clots caused by the J&J vaccine (Posts mischaracterize CDC data on COVID-19 vaccine deaths | AP News), and there were undoubtedly more, but that's what I could find. Even if there were as many as 100 deaths due to the vaccines, given that 665 million doses have been administered that's a death rate of .000015%, or about 25,000 times smaller than the covid death rate.

But even if there were some incredible number of deaths due to the vaccine, say 23,000 (the number of adverse effects reported to the CDC's VAERS system), given those 665 million doses that's a death rate of .003%, or nearly 200 times less than the covid death rate. So even if every reported adverse reaction were an actual death, the vaccine is still far safer than the disease.

You being an expert in comorbidities, how many of the 0.4% had comorbities?
Kleinman:
Percy, tell us what you know about comorbidities. If someone has cancer or heart disease, and covid and dies, what is his cause of death?
Percy:
I'm not a doctor or a medical examiner, but the amount of information you provide seems insufficient. Most commonly covid attacks the lungs and interferes with the uptake of oxygen, which is why so many ventilators were needed. Blood clots and cytokine storms can happen. Opportunistic diseases like pneumonia can play a role.

By the way, here is the CDC guidance for filling out death certificates for covid: Guidance for Certifying Deaths Due to
Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19).

So, you don't know how many people had comorbidities that died.
Kleinman:
Why in July is the spread of covid twice as high in counties where people wear masks than in counties where people aren't wearing masks?
Percy:
At the beginning of July the covid rate looks to be about three times as high in those counties that decided to adopt a mandate. The higher rate is probably why they adopted it. Within a couple weeks after adopting the mask mandate their case rate began declining and then fluctuated.

But in counties that adopted no mandate and though their case rate started from a much lower base, within a couple months it had exceeded that of the mandate counties and just kept climbing.

The article provides no information about which counties were involved, but I imagine the higher initial rate in the counties that eventually adopted mandates were more urban.​

Why did counties where people wore mask have twice the incidence of covid than those counties that didn't wear masks in July?
Percy:
I'm still wondering why you think societal health policies should be guided by the Bible, and about what other religions' holy books you would also permit.
Did I say that? Please post the quote. You won't because false accusations is your way of debate.
Kleinman:
That's the reason you are so naive. You don't understand that vaccinations can be a very profitable business. Then Tangle can start a thread that tells us we are all saved while Pfizer and Moderna are laughing all the way to the bank.
Percy:
Can you explain to us why you object to vaccine manufacturers making large profits? I question it, too, I'm just surprised to hear you making anti-capitalist comments. I guess it's okay for companies to make profits in areas you agree with, presumably areas like petroleum, mining, oil and gas exploration, gas-powered cars and coal-fired power plants, but not on things you disagree with like vaccines, masks, solar and wind power, etc.

I don't have a problem with companies making large profits. I have a problem with companies making large profits based on fear. Perhaps you can teach me about solar power since I have lived off grid for over 20 years and generate electricity using a solar system. I did this because the electric company wanted over $20,000 to bring the wires to my house. Why don't you tell us all about battery technology since you want everyone to have an electric car? Then we can know how ill-prepared on this subject you are as well.
Kleinman:
I had never heard of Scott Jensen until I saw this video.
Percy:
I'd never heard of him either. Since you'd never heard of him, what makes you think he's a reliable source of information? Just that he says things you agree with and wish were true?

I checked out if he was a physician and a state senator in Minnesota and both are true. I also know what it is to fill out a death certificate and the effect of comorbidities (which you don't understand).
Kleinman:
Now you make an accusation that he is an anti-vaxxer.
Percy:
During the COVID-19 pandemic, Jensen was known for his criticisms of COVID-19 lockdowns and promotion of COVID-19 anti-vaccination falsehoods.
...
Jensen aligned himself with the COVID-19 anti-vaccination movement. In May 2021, he sued the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services in an attempt to prevent children from receiving COVID-19 vaccinations. His fellow plaintiffs in the suit included anti-vaccine activist Simone Gold and the right-wing political organization America's Frontline Doctors (AFD). AFD had attracted notoriety for its promotion of false and misleading COVID-19 claims. The complaint, filed in federal court in Alabama, falsely called the COVID-19 vaccines a dangerous "experimental biological agent".[48] The affidavit claimed that "it would be reckless to subject anyone in that age group to the experimental COVID-19 vaccine", and Jensen said that giving children the vaccine "would violate his oath as a doctor and place him in an untenable position".In a later interview, Jensen said he had "quietly" been a member of AFD and had been unaware of the involvement of the group's founder, Gold, in the January 6 United States Capitol attack. He also said he did not read the whole petition before signing it. In the same interview, Jensen said, against medical consensus, that he does not recommend COVID-19 vaccines for "young and healthy" people. He was banned from TikTok in April 2021 and restricted from advertising on Facebook in July 2021 for violating community guidelines barring the promotion of COVID-19 misinformation.

So you don't have any quotes from Jensen supporting your claim. All you have is his criticism of using an untested vaccine on children. And it turns out that covid has little effect on children. You are very sloppy in your research and your false accusations.
Kleinman:
Are you so naive that you don't understand that people can be motivated by money?
Percy:
You're arguing with arguments you made up yourself, not with anything I said.

You really are naive. You should see how drug representatives work. When I was training and in the first 10 years of practice, they were commonly seen. Some doctors made inappropriate decisions based on the influence of the drug representatives. Now they go directly to patients through advertising and who knows what these drug companies are doing to the CDC and FDA. They certainly have the money to corrupt these organizations. But you know them, they would never do such a thing.
Kleinman:
Cuomo sent covid patients to nursing homes where people already had many comorbidities causing thousands of people to die.
Percy:
You do realize, I hope, that you're getting this backwards again.

Go ahead, and put your spin on it. While you are at it, put your spin on the thousands of deaths he caused.
Kleinman:
You have your conspiracy theories and I have mine.
Percy:
No, only you. I think that for some people conspiracy theories trigger something in the brain that makes them irresistible. The conspiracy theories become obsessions, almost an addiction like gambling.

Oh right. You got your anti-vaxxers, and anti-electric car people, and your anti-science people, and your anti-global warming people, and your anti-health care people,... Just go get your booster shot paid for by other people and everything will be all right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1021 by Percy, posted 04-24-2023 2:28 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1025 by Percy, posted 04-24-2023 7:31 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22473
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 1023 of 1110 (910470)
04-24-2023 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1020 by Kleinman
04-24-2023 9:53 AM


Re: Excess Mortality
Kleinman writes:
Watch and see what?
Watch and see what happens with excess deaths for the rest of the year by revisiting that graph every so often. If the claims that people who died would have died anyway within a couple years or so then the excess mortality rate should dive over the course of this year.
Do you think that a reduction of 2500 cases per 100,000 people to 1500 cases per 100,000 people in a month is a significant reduction? And that reduction can be attributed solely to masks?
All that can be established with these kinds of studies is correlation. In this case the chart indicates that a correlation likely exists between mask mandates and lower covid case rates.
Reducing the case rate by 1000 per 100,000 per month seems very significant. In a state of 10 million that's a reduction of 100,000 cases per month, and with a covid death rate of, say, 1% (an optimistic figure for 2020), that would be 12,000 fewer deaths over the course of a year, also a very significant number.
Get as many vaccines and boosters as you want, especially if you can get somebody else to pay for them.
A society that vaccinates as many people as possible for covid makes it less likely that covid will spread, creating a healthier society. The less likely that, for example, the people you're walking by on the street or sitting nearby you in a restaurant are infected, the less likely it is that you'll be infected yourself.
I just came back from my second bivalent shot. I don't how severe the latest variant is, but I'd like to avoid catching covid if I can. The US is still experiencing about 14,000 cases and 250 deaths per week. The case rate is severely underreported because almost everyone now uses home tests and don't usually report a positive test. Probably only covid cases serious enough to force the seeking of medical treatment make it into the statistics these days.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1020 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 9:53 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1024 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 5:06 PM Percy has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 354 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1024 of 1110 (910472)
04-24-2023 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1023 by Percy
04-24-2023 4:20 PM


Re: Excess Mortality
Kleinman:
Watch and see what?
Percy:
Watch and see what happens with excess deaths for the rest of the year by revisiting that graph every so often. If the claims that people who died would have died anyway within a couple years or so then the excess mortality rate should dive over the course of this year.

You don't even know how comorbidities affect death rates. How many people died with covid had comorbidities?
Kleinman:
Do you think that a reduction of 2500 cases per 100,000 people to 1500 cases per 100,000 people in a month is a significant reduction? And that reduction can be attributed solely to masks?
Percy:
All that can be established with these kinds of studies is correlation. In this case the chart indicates that a correlation likely exists between mask mandates and lower covid case rates.

Reducing the case rate by 1000 per 100,000 per month seems very significant. In a state of 10 million that's a reduction of 100,000 cases per month, and with a covid death rate of, say, 1% (an optimistic figure for 2020), that would be 12,000 fewer deaths over the course of a year, also a very significant number.​

Who needs studies, your mind is already made up. What about when the death rates are higher with masks than without masks? What's your spin on that?
Kleinman:
Get as many vaccines and boosters as you want, especially if you can get somebody else to pay for them.
Percy:
A society that vaccinates as many people as possible for covid makes it less likely that covid will spread, creating a healthier society. The less likely that, for example, the people you're walking by on the street or sitting nearby you in a restaurant are infected, the less likely it is that you'll be infected yourself.

I just came back from my second bivalent shot. I don't how severe the latest variant is, but I'd like to avoid catching covid if I can. The US is still experiencing about 14,000 cases and 250 deaths per week. The case rate is severely underreported because almost everyone now uses home tests and don't usually report a positive test. Probably only covid cases serious enough to force the seeking of medical treatment make it into the statistics these days.

You should go to work for the drug companies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1023 by Percy, posted 04-24-2023 4:20 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1026 by Percy, posted 04-24-2023 8:08 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22473
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 1025 of 1110 (910475)
04-24-2023 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1022 by Kleinman
04-24-2023 4:07 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman in Message 1022 writes:
Why don't you name them?
You want me to name all the health authorities at the federal, state or local level? Why? Can't you just look up any who interest you on the Internet? For instance, Google "director department health ca" and you'll see that it's Tomás J. Aragón. Anyway, yeah, guys like him at the federal, state and local levels, they're the health authorities.
That was close enough for Biden to get it wrong.
I don't know why you're rehashing this, but as I said the first time, I think Biden got it wrong at the CNN Town Hall all by himself.
You being an expert in comorbidities, how many of the 0.4% had comorbidities?
...
So, you don't know how many people had comorbidities that died.
Here's a link to that information, Comorbidities and other conditions, but can't you look up this kind of stuff yourself? And why are you so obsessed with comorbidities. I'm sorry you don't like that you weren't the first to bring it up, but you're going to have to live with it because that fact is embedded in the thread and isn't going away.
Why did counties where people wore mask have twice the incidence of covid than those counties that didn't wear masks in July?
The mask mandate in that graph began July 1. Do you have some kind of expectation that implementation, compliance and effect should be instantaneous? It looks like the rate continued rising for another couple weeks or so, then began falling, then fluctuated in a narrow range, while in the counties with no mandate the rate just kept climbing and climbing.
Did I say that? Please post the quote. You won't because false accusations is your way of debate.
Ironic accusation there. I had expressed the thought that a society that makes the good health of all its citizens a goal was better off, and you replied skeptically, so I asked what you thought society's goal should be. In reply in Message 965 you said, "Read the Bible and you can find out."
How many times are you going to pull this "I never said that" thing about things that are right there in your old posts.
I don't have a problem with companies making large profits. I have a problem with companies making large profits based on fear.
So you're against profits made on guns?
Perhaps you can teach me about solar power...
Why would I do that? What I asked you about was which industry's profits are okay by you. Since fear seems to the relevant factor to you, are solar and wind power profits okay with you even though they're based on fear of climate change? How about profits on sunscreen since they're based on fear of skin cancer?
I checked out if he was a physician and a state senator in Minnesota and both are true.
And he said things you agree with. You never checked whether they were true because you agree with him because you're as wrong as he is.
I doubt that many who are anti-vaxxers and anti-science describe themselves that way. They instead raise false concerns about vaccine safety and make false claims that they aren't needed. You and Jensen both quack exactly like the anti-vax ducks you are.
Jensen got banned on TikTok for pushing false anti-vax info. He hasn't gotten vaccinated even though he's 69. He seems to be a poor judge of people because his fellow plaintiff in the lawsuit to block vaccinations for those between 12 and 15 was arrested in the January 6th insurrection. He's a fellow traveler with prominent people in the anti-vax world. He won't state he's anti-science or anti-vax, only going as far as describing himself as a contrarian and skeptic, and you seem to be buying his bit. If he told you he doesn't drink while having a beer you'd probably believe him.
Now they go directly to patients through advertising and who knows what these drug companies are doing to the CDC and FDA. They certainly have the money to corrupt these organizations. But you know them, they would never do such a thing.
You're just spouting more conspiracy nonsense. When you find evidence of wrongdoing let us know.
Go ahead, and put your spin on it. While you are at it, put your spin on the thousands of deaths he caused.
The thing I can't figure out is how after finally getting it right you went right back to getting it wrong. Cuomo didn't confine patients in nursing homes. He prevented nursing homes from using covid status in making admission decisions.
Oh right. You got your anti-vaxxers, and anti-electric car people, and your anti-science people, and your anti-global warming people, and your anti-health care people,...
It isn't being anti-something that makes someone a conspiracy theorist. It's when the idea of something has such strong emotional appeal that it overwhelms the ability to objectively assess evidence. Conspiracy theorists seem to be particularly vulnerable to YouTube videos.
Just go get your booster shot paid for by other people and everything will be all right.
Our society as a whole paid for it, so thank you everyone! Remember, the person I end up not infecting could be you!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1022 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 4:07 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1027 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 8:43 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22473
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 1026 of 1110 (910476)
04-24-2023 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1024 by Kleinman
04-24-2023 5:06 PM


Re: Excess Mortality
Kleinman in Message 1024 writes:
You don't even know how comorbidities affect death rates. How many people died with covid had comorbidities?
I gave you a link to the info a couple messages ago (Comorbidities and other conditions), but what's important is excess deaths. If Jensen's claim is correct that many who died of covid whould have died anyway of other causes within two or three years then that will show up as a dip in excess deaths into the significantly negative.
Who needs studies, your mind is already made up.
I follow the evidence.
What about when the death rates are higher with masks than without masks? What's your spin on that?
That would be counterintuitive. What would be the mechanism for such an effect? Do you have links to studies showing this? Zacharias Fögen speculates in his paper A mechanism by which facemasks contribute to the COVID-19 case fatality rate about a "Fögen effect". One has to wonder about someone who names an effect for himself. There's also Correlation Between Mask Compliance and COVID-19 Outcomes in Europe by Beny Spira.
But a review (Scientific evidence shows that mask-wearing is effective at limiting community transmission; claims that face masks increase mortality are based on flawed correlation studies) found both studies to be seriously flawed.
But take a look at the papers and see what you think.
You should go to work for the drug companies.
I think you place a higher value on being right than on public health.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1024 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 5:06 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1028 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 8:59 PM Percy has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 354 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1027 of 1110 (910477)
04-24-2023 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1025 by Percy
04-24-2023 7:31 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Why don't you name them?
Percy:
You want me to name all the health authorities at the federal, state or local level? Why? Can't you just look up any who interest you on the Internet? For instance, Google "director department health ca" and you'll see that it's Tomás J. Aragón. Anyway, yeah, guys like him at the federal, state and local levels, they're the health authorities.

Just put Anthony Fauci at the top of the list.
Kleinman:
That was close enough for Biden to get it wrong.
Percy:
I don't know why you're rehashing this, but as I said the first time, I think Biden got it wrong at the CNN Town Hall all by himself.

You never did explain why Biden didn't correct himself. All you did was give a us one of his long speeches where he never mentioned his error.
Kleinman:
You being an expert in comorbidities, how many of the 0.4% had comorbidities?
...
So, you don't know how many people had comorbidities that died.
Percy:
Here's a link to that information, Comorbidities and other conditions, but can't you look up this kind of stuff yourself? And why are you so obsessed with comorbidities. I'm sorry you don't like that you weren't the first to bring it up, but you're going to have to live with it because that fact is embedded in the thread and isn't going away.

Do you think any of the thousands of people that died from covid at New York nursing homes had any comorbidities?
Kleinman:
Why did counties where people wore mask have twice the incidence of covid than those counties that didn't wear masks in July?
Percy:
The mask mandate in that graph began July 1. Do you have some kind of expectation that implementation, compliance and effect should be instantaneous? It looks like the rate continued rising for another couple weeks or so, then began falling, then fluctuated in a narrow range, while in the counties with no mandate the rate just kept climbing and climbing.

Why did they draw their line for mask usage before July?
Kleinman:
Did I say that? Please post the quote. You won't because false accusations is your way of debate.
Percy:
Ironic accusation there. I had expressed the thought that a society that makes the good health of all its citizens a goal was better off, and you replied skeptically, so I asked what you thought society's goal should be. In reply in Message 965 you said, "Read the Bible and you can find out."

How many times are you going to pull this "I never said that" thing about things that are right there in your old posts.

Any time you make a false accusation about what I said, I'm going to ask you to post the quote.
Kleinman:
I don't have a problem with companies making large profits. I have a problem with companies making large profits based on fear.
Percy:
So you're against profits made on guns?

Every time the issue of gun control comes up, there is an increase in the demand for guns. You still haven't told us if you think a person has a right of self defense.
Kleinman:
Perhaps you can teach me about solar power...
Percy:
Why would I do that? What I asked you about was which industry's profits are okay by you. Since fear seems to the relevant factor to you, are solar and wind power profits okay with you even though they're based on fear of climate change? How about profits on sunscreen since they're based on fear of skin cancer?

Don't worry, I'm not going to ask you to teach me about solar power. My system works just fine. Fear is not your enemy when it is appropriate, it is the emotion that kicks in when you have to defend yourself. It is an emotion that can be exploited falsely by businesses to market their products.
Kleinman:
I checked out if he was a physician and a state senator in Minnesota and both are true.
Percy:
And he said things you agree with. You never checked whether they were true because you agree with him because you're as wrong as he is.

I doubt that many who are anti-vaxxers and anti-science describe themselves that way. They instead raise false concerns about vaccine safety and make false claims that they aren't needed. You and Jensen both quack exactly like the anti-vax ducks you are.

Jensen got banned on TikTok for pushing false anti-vax info. He hasn't gotten vaccinated even though he's 69. He seems to be a poor judge of people because his fellow plaintiff in the lawsuit to block vaccinations for those between 12 and 15 was arrested in the January 6th insurrection. He's a fellow traveler with prominent people in the anti-vax world. He won't state he's anti-science or anti-vax, only going as far as describing himself as a contrarian and skeptic, and you seem to be buying his bit. If he told you he doesn't drink while having a beer you'd probably believe him.

He said things that I've experienced and know to be true. Physicians can change the data by the way they write the cause of death on a death certificate. You don't understand this. That's why I continue to press you on this issue of comorbidities and causes of death. I've experienced how drug companies work and they have the money to corrupt government officials so they can sell more of their drugs. They use this to sell their product. Do you know that coronavirus has been around for years, it has been associated with common colds.
And you take being banned from a Chinese-owned TikTok as an indication that he's an anti-vaxxer. You are naive.
Kleinman:
Now they go directly to patients through advertising and who knows what these drug companies are doing to the CDC and FDA. They certainly have the money to corrupt these organizations. But you know them, they would never do such a thing.
Percy:
You're just spouting more conspiracy nonsense. When you find evidence of wrongdoing let us know.

So you think the drug companies don't advertise? You don't understand why they do it and are really naive.
Kleinman:
Go ahead, and put your spin on it. While you are at it, put your spin on the thousands of deaths he caused.
Percy:
The thing I can't figure out is how after finally getting it right you went right back to getting it wrong. Cuomo didn't confine patients in nursing homes. He prevented nursing homes from using covid status in making admission decisions.

Next, you are going to tell us that thousands of people didn't die because of Cuomo's policy and that Cuomo is still the governor of New York.
Kleinman:
Oh right. You got your anti-vaxxers, and anti-electric car people, and your anti-science people, and your anti-global warming people, and your anti-health care people,...
Percy:
It isn't being anti-something that makes someone a conspiracy theorist. It's when the idea of something has such strong emotional appeal that it overwhelms the ability to objectively assess evidence. Conspiracy theorists seem to be particularly vulnerable to YouTube videos.

You are the one that rushed out and got a covid booster shot. And you are the one that wants to put sanctions on people that don't get vaccinated. You want to force people to get electric cars when the infrastructure can't support it, people like you throw the anti-science accusation around but can't explain the Kishony and Lenski experiments, and scream about global warming and the sea level rising while Obama buys a house on the beach.
Kleinman:
Just go get your booster shot paid for by other people and everything will be all right.
Percy:
Our society as a whole paid for it, so thank you everyone! Remember, the person I end up not infecting could be you!

I hope society appreciates your gratitude because they are paying for it with higher food and fuel prices. New Hampshire gets pretty cold in the winter, how was your heating bill?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1025 by Percy, posted 04-24-2023 7:31 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1031 by Percy, posted 04-25-2023 10:38 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 354 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1028 of 1110 (910478)
04-24-2023 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1026 by Percy
04-24-2023 8:08 PM


Re: Excess Mortality
Kleinman:
You don't even know how comorbidities affect death rates. How many people died with covid had comorbidities?
Percy:
I gave you a link to the info a couple messages ago (Comorbidities and other conditions), but what's important is excess deaths. If Jensen's claim is correct that many who died of covid whould have died anyway of other causes within two or three years then that will show up as a dip in excess deaths into the significantly negative.

Why don't you post the number of people that died with covid and also had comorbidities?
Kleinman:
Who needs studies, your mind is already made up.
Percy:
I follow the evidence.

What does the evidence say is the number of people that died with covid and had comorbidities?
Kleinman:
What about when the death rates are higher with masks than without masks? What's your spin on that?
Percy:
That would be counterintuitive. What would be the mechanism for such an effect? Do you have links to studies showing this? Zacharias Fögen speculates in his paper A mechanism by which facemasks contribute to the COVID-19 case fatality rate about a "Fögen effect". One has to wonder about someone who names an effect for himself. There's also Correlation Between Mask Compliance and COVID-19 Outcomes in Europe by Beny Spira.

But a review (Scientific evidence shows that mask-wearing is effective at limiting community transmission; claims that face masks increase mortality are based on flawed correlation studies) found both studies to be seriously flawed.

But take a look at the papers and see what you think.

Aren't you able to post the data to support your argument? You posted a graph that shows an increased incidence of covid infection in people wearing masks than in people not wearing masks. Why doesn't it coincide with your intuition?
Kleinman:
You should go to work for the drug companies.
Percy:
I think you place a higher value on being right than on public health.

You could think that, but you would be wrong. I think I've spent a little more time and effort on the study of healthcare than you have. I didn't do this so that I would hurt people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1026 by Percy, posted 04-24-2023 8:08 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1032 by Percy, posted 04-25-2023 10:56 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22473
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 1029 of 1110 (910485)
04-25-2023 9:28 AM


Dr. Fauci Speaks
An Interview with Dr. Anthony Fauci by David Wallace-Wells appears in today's New York Times magazine. It is lengthy. Here are some excerpts. Sorry for the length, I tried to focus on the key issues, but this is much, much shorter than the full interview:
Dr. Anthony Fauci Interview:
Wallace-WellsOf course, there were mistakes and missteps, including some by Fauci: describing the threat to the country as “minuscule” in February 2020, for instance; or first advising against wearing masks, and moving slowly on aerosol spread; or playing down the risk of what were first called “breakthrough infections” in the summer of 2021. And the broader public-health establishment that Fauci came to embody made other mistakes, too, even if it wasn’t always easy to know at the time or identify later who exactly was responsible. Almost certainly, schools stayed closed longer than they needed to. Very conspicuously, American vaccination rates never approached the levels of peer nations — and the problem wasn’t just the anti-vaccine right. Quarantine guidance was abruptly shortened in the midst of the Omicron variant, when thresholds of community-spread levels were suddenly redefined as well. There was no effective paid sick leave instituted, and the official end of the pandemic emergency on May 11 imperils the Medicaid coverage of 15 million Americans.
FauciSomething clearly went wrong. And I don’t know exactly what it was. But the reason we know it went wrong is that we are the richest country in the world, and on a per-capita basis we’ve done worse than virtually all other countries.1 And there’s no reason that a rich country like ours has to have 1.1 million deaths. Unacceptable.
Wallace-WellsThere have been three times as many American deaths since Election Day 2020 as before. And we’ve done much worse, compared with our peers, since vaccination began than we had before.
FauciI mean, only 68 percent of the country is vaccinated. If you rank us among both developed and developing countries, we do really poorly. We’re not even in the top 10. We’re way down there.3 And then: Why do you have red states that are unvaccinated and blue states that are vaccinated? Why do you have death rates among Republicans that are higher than death rates among Democrats and independents?4 It should never ever be that way when you’re dealing with a public-health crisis...
...
ut right off the bat, we were dealing with a new type of vaccine, an mRNA vaccine. And there was this smoldering level of suspicion and that divisiveness in the country. And then there was the whole idea of people not getting vaccinated, and then came mandating.
Wallace-WellsYou think that was harmful?
FauciMan, I think, almost paradoxically, you had people who were on the fence about getting vaccinated thinking, why are they forcing me to do this? And that sometimes-beautiful independent streak in our country becomes counterproductive. And you have that smoldering anti-science feeling, a divisiveness that’s palpable politically in this country.
The thing that astounded me is that when there were surges of infections in certain regions and the hospitals were being overwhelmed, people were still saying it’s fake news. I mean, people whose loved ones were in the hospital were denying that it was Covid. It seems inconceivable. That’s why I have to say I really don’t know. I wish I had an answer, but some very strange psychodynamics were going on in our country.
...
What has been so troubling to me as a health official is when you are dealing with a moving target, the evidence is evolving and new data becomes available, but you get so many different people with their own sets of data that are not real data. But even in a perfect world, it would not be easy.
...
But what I can say is that, at least to my perception, the emphasis strictly on the science and public health — that is what public-health people should do. I’m not an economist. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is not an economic organization. The surgeon general is not an economist. So we looked at it from a purely public-health standpoint. It was for other people to make broader assessments — people whose positions include but aren’t exclusively about public health. Those people have to make the decisions about the balance between the potential negative consequences of something versus the benefits of something.
...
But when people say, “Fauci shut down the economy” — it wasn’t Fauci. The C.D.C. was the organization that made those recommendations. I happened to be perceived as the personification of the recommendations. But show me a school that I shut down and show me a factory that I shut down. Never. I never did. I gave a public-health recommendation that echoed the C.D.C.’s recommendation, and people made a decision based on that.
Wallace-WellsIt wasn’t until later in March that the alarm was really raised. Was that too late? Could we have raised the alarm earlier? And if so, what would the effect have been, do you think?
FauciWell, first of all, this is one of the things that keeps getting distorted. When I said we don’t need to do anything different right at this moment, please don’t forget that was followed by a semicolon, and then a “however,” and then by, “This could change rapidly, and we better be prepared for that.” I said that every single time. And the people who want to do gotchas on me only show the first part.
Wallace-WellsBut if you go back in time, if you put yourself in February 2020, you’re telling Helen Branswell,7 for instance, that this virus was low-risk and that you didn’t want to stake your credibility on what could be a false alarm. Do you wish you had said then more emphatically that this is a real, urgent threat and that we need to stand up our defenses immediately?
FauciYeah, I think, retrospectively, we certainly should have done that. If you look at what we knew at the time, though — we didn’t know that in January. We were not fully appreciative of the fact that we were dealing with a highly, highly transmissible virus that was clearly spread by ways that were unprecedented and unexperienced by us. And so it fooled us in the beginning and confused us about the need for masks and the need for ventilation and the need for inhibition of social interaction.
Wallace-Wells To be clear: I’m not someone who doesn’t think masks work. I think the science and the data show that they do work, but that they aren’t perfect and that at the population level the effect can be somewhat small. In what was probably our best study, from Bangladesh, in places where mask use tripled, positive tests were reduced by less than 10 percent.
FauciIt’s a good point in general, but I disagree with your premise a bit. From a broad public-health standpoint, at the population level, masks work at the margins — maybe 10 percent. But for an individual who religiously wears a mask, a well-fitted KN95 or N95, it’s not at the margin. It really does work.
...
And that’s the reason it just bothers me a lot — maybe more so than some others — that because of the culture wars you’re talking about, there are people who are not going to make use of an intervention that could have saved their lives.
Wallace-WellsLet’s talk about herd immunity. In 2020, you talked a fair bit about what it would take to get there.
FauciWhat I was trying to tell Donald was that we don’t know what the threshold of herd immunity would be. But I probably could have been more clear that we were talking about a moving target, because we didn’t know how transmissible the virus was.
Wallace-WellsAnd in fact a number of epidemiologists I’ve spoken to have told me that given the nature of this virus, we should have never entertained herd immunity as a possibility, given the way SARS-CoV-2 replicates in the body. What went wrong there?
FauciWell, I don’t think anybody did anything wrong. What went wrong was that the virus did not act the way one would have thought the virus would act. We made an assumption that turned out to be an incorrect assumption — that this was going to act like other viruses.
The classical definition of herd immunity has been completely turned upside down by Covid. And let me go through the steps. Herd immunity is based on two premises: one, that the virus doesn’t change, and two, that when you get infected or vaccinated, the durability of protection is measured in decades, if not a lifetime. With SARS-CoV-2, we thought protection against infection was going to be measured in a long period of time. And we found out — wait a minute, protection against infection, and against severe disease, is measured in months, not decades. No. 2, the virus that you got infected with in January 2020 is very different from the virus that you’re going to get infected with in 2021 and 2022.
...
The vaccines protected well against infection and disease with Alpha, Beta and Delta. Then along comes Omicron. It evades immunity so well that a vaccine doesn’t even protect very well against infection. So with a changing virus and a duration of immunity that doesn’t last — what is herd immunity for that virus?
...
And then we found out something that was stunning. When you looked at the titer of the virus in infected and asymptomatic people and a virus in the nose of symptomatic infected people, it was the same. What the hell is going on here? That was a big surprise. So we were wrong, but we weren’t wrong because we didn’t interpret data in front of us. We never had those data. We did not know early on that 50 to 60 percent of the transmissions would be asymptomatic. That was like, whoa. When I saw those data, I said: This is different. We’re dealing with a disease the likes of which we’ve never seen before.
...
If you look at what I was saying in the months before I stepped down, and what Ashish Jha is saying to this day, it’s that if you are vaccinated and boosted and have available therapy, you are not going to die, no matter how old you are. We were very explicit in saying that. Did people hear that? I don’t know. How loud do you have to say something for people to understand? How often have you got to say it?

The remainder is about lab leaks, communication, data collection, etc.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 1030 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 10:18 AM Percy has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 354 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1030 of 1110 (910487)
04-25-2023 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1029 by Percy
04-25-2023 9:28 AM


Re: Dr. Fauci Speaks
Percy:
An Interview with Dr. Anthony Fauci by David Wallace-Wells appears in today's New York Times magazine. It is lengthy. Here are some excerpts. Sorry for the length, I tried to focus on the key issues, but this is much, much shorter than the full interview:
Percy, you completely miss the point. Aside from the fact that Fauci gave extremely bad advice about vaccinations that Joe Biden passed along, advice which any medical student that has studied pathology would understand that vaccines don't stop the possibility of being infected or the possibility that a vaccinated person can spread the infection. This was done by the "top medical expert" in our government.
What you do as a worshipper of Fauci (and "government experts") is label someone who questions the efficacy and safety of a vaccine, an "anti-vaxxer". This is not only wrong but shuts down the discussion from people that may have something to offer in the situation. Or perhaps you think that the only people that have something to offer are government employees? Fauci has no idea why so many people don't listen to him. Perhaps it is because he actually doesn't understand the problem he is supposed to be dealing with. It doesn't take an expert in psychodynamics to see this. What Fauci does have is the power to allocate grant money, and anyone trying to get that money had better not criticize what Fauci says. You are extremely naive Percy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1029 by Percy, posted 04-25-2023 9:28 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1037 by Percy, posted 04-25-2023 3:46 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22473
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 1031 of 1110 (910488)
04-25-2023 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1027 by Kleinman
04-24-2023 8:43 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
Just put Anthony Fauci at the top of the list.
Fauci was director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and was certainly the most visible health authority during the pandemic, but he doesn't have dictatorial powers, only the power to influence CDC recommendations, some legally binding on state and local health officials and some not.
You never did explain why Biden didn't correct himself. All you did was give a us one of his long speeches where he never mentioned his error.
We've been over this. I agree with you that Biden got it wrong. I couldn't find anything in the news about a correction and expressed the wish that one had been issued. And you're right that in a later speech where he got the facts straight he did not mention that at the CNN Town Hall earlier that year he had spoken incorrectly. Why do you wish to rehash this?
Do you think any of the thousands of people that died from covid at New York nursing homes had any comorbidities?
Undoubtedly, but what point are you trying to make?
Why did they draw their line for mask usage before July?
I think you may be interpreting the graph incorrectly. Here it is again for reference:
The vertical line above the word July represents July 1. The yellow line indicates counties that before July 1 had no mask mandate but that implemented one beginning July 1.
The maroon line indicates counties that prior to July 1 had no mask mandate and after July 1 still had no mask mandate.
Within a couple weeks after July 1 the case rate in counties with a mandate ceased rising and began fluctuating within a narrow range, while the case rate in counties without a mandate just kept rising and rising.
Any time you make a false accusation about what I said, I'm going to ask you to post the quote.
I think you should defend yourself against all false accusations, but in the case of you saying, "Read the Bible and you can find out," it's right there in black and white in your Message 965.
What point is it that you're trying to make. Concerning how societies should set public health policies you said people should read their Bible. What did you mean by that? Do you think the holy books of other religions should also inform public health policies or only Christianity's.
Every time the issue of gun control comes up, there is an increase in the demand for guns. You still haven't told us if you think a person has a right of self defense.
There *is* a thread for that topic. We know you know about it because you earlier threatened to trash that thread, too.
Fear is not your enemy when it is appropriate,...
What are you saying? That fear of guns is appropriate while fear of deadly disease is not?
it is the emotion that kicks in when you have to defend yourself. It is an emotion that can be exploited falsely by businesses to market their products.
You're describing the gun industry to a T. Do you think their profits based on fear are appropriate?
He said things that I've experienced and know to be true.
You think many things that aren't true.
Physicians can change the data by the way they write the cause of death on a death certificate. You don't understand this.
This is so simple that even children under 6 can understand it. What's missing is any support for your claim that physicians are purposefully lying on death certificates on a large scale country-wide.
That's why I continue to press you on this issue of comorbidities and causes of death. I've experienced how drug companies work and they have the money to corrupt government officials so they can sell more of their drugs. They use this to sell their product.
It's a pretty safe bet that there's corruption everywhere out there that we don't know about, but until you have evidence all you've got is a baseless conspiracy theory. Maybe what you're making up is actually true, but you still need evidence.
Do you know that coronavirus has been around for years, it has been associated with common colds.
Yes. And your point is?
And you take being banned from a Chinese-owned TikTok as an indication that he's an anti-vaxxer. You are naive.
He was banned from TikTok for promoting falsehoods about vaccines. From TikTok bans Minnesota gubernatorial candidate Scott Jensen over COVID-19 misinformation:
quote:
(FOX 9) - TikTok removed Minnesota gubernatorial candidate Scott Jensen's account for spreading misinformation on COVID-19 guidelines, a spokesperson confirmed to FOX 9.
But he's a physician and a state legislator with views you agree with, so to you he couldn't possibly be wrong and hang the facts.
So you think the drug companies don't advertise? You don't understand why they do it and are really naive.
You are once again replying to something that only you said.
Next, you are going to tell us that thousands of people didn't die because of Cuomo's policy and that Cuomo is still the governor of New York.
I'll just continue to repeat what is true. Cuomo didn't confine patients in nursing homes. He prevented nursing homes from using covid status in making admission decisions.
You are the one that rushed out and got a covid booster shot.
You sure sound like an anti-vaxxer.
The evidence suggests that the booster is prudent for our age group, especially since we plan to attend a large wedding and then travel over the next couple months.
And you are the one that wants to put sanctions on people that don't get vaccinated.
You are once again responding to something that only you said.
You want to force people to get electric cars when the infrastructure can't support it,...
Again, this is something that only you said.
...people like you throw the anti-science accusation around but can't explain the Kishony and Lenski experiments,...
If you don't want to be perceived as anti-science then stop behaving like you are. Try displaying a measured scientific temperament that gives fair and balanced consideration to evidence instead of going off the deep end with endless false accusations and mischaracterizations and conspiracy theory advocacy.
...and scream about global warming and the sea level rising while Obama buys a house on the beach.
The elevation of the house itself is only 8 feet. On the surface it doesn't seem like a prudent purchase, but I don't know any of the weather related history.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1027 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 8:43 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1033 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 12:22 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22473
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 1032 of 1110 (910489)
04-25-2023 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1028 by Kleinman
04-24-2023 8:59 PM


Re: Excess Mortality
Kleinman writes:
Percy:
I gave you a link to the info a couple messages ago (Comorbidities and other conditions), but what's important is excess deaths. If Jensen's claim is correct that many who died of covid whould have died anyway of other causes within two or three years then that will show up as a dip in excess deaths into the significantly negative.
Why don't you post the number of people that died with covid and also had comorbidities?
Like I said, I already provided a link to that information. But that information by itself can't tell you whether they would have died anyway within 2 or 3 years. The best information for that would be excess death data, which we'll have to wait for.
What does the evidence say is the number of people that died with covid and had comorbidities?
You have the information. If you think it's relevant then tell us.
Kleinman:
What about when the death rates are higher with masks than without masks? What's your spin on that?
Percy:
That would be counterintuitive. What would be the mechanism for such an effect? Do you have links to studies showing this? Zacharias Fögen speculates in his paper A mechanism by which facemasks contribute to the COVID-19 case fatality rate about a "Fögen effect". One has to wonder about someone who names an effect for himself. There's also Correlation Between Mask Compliance and COVID-19 Outcomes in Europe by Beny Spira.

But a review (Scientific evidence shows that mask-wearing is effective at limiting community transmission; claims that face masks increase mortality are based on flawed correlation studies) found both studies to be seriously flawed.

But take a look at the papers and see what you think.

Aren't you able to post the data to support your argument?
I don't have an argument. I provided a few links and suggested you look at them to see what you think. Do the papers describe the same issues that you're concerned about.
You posted a graph that shows an increased incidence of covid infection in people wearing masks than in people not wearing masks.
No, it wasn't me. If such a graph was posted here I don't recall it.
You could think that, but you would be wrong. I think I've spent a little more time and effort on the study of healthcare than you have. I didn't do this so that I would hurt people.
You don't *want* to hurt people, I'm sure, but that's what you're doing.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1028 by Kleinman, posted 04-24-2023 8:59 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1034 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 12:47 PM Percy has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 354 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1033 of 1110 (910490)
04-25-2023 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1031 by Percy
04-25-2023 10:38 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Just put Anthony Fauci at the top of the list.
Percy:
Fauci was director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and was certainly the most visible health authority during the pandemic, but he doesn't have dictatorial powers, only the power to influence CDC recommendations, some legally binding on state and local health officials and some not.

The power that Fauci has was used extremely poorly. He misled Biden about vaccines and Fauci never corrected his blunder which any third-year medical student could understand was a blunder.
Kleinman:
You never did explain why Biden didn't correct himself. All you did was give a us one of his long speeches where he never mentioned his error.
Percy:
We've been over this. I agree with you that Biden got it wrong. I couldn't find anything in the news about a correction and expressed the wish that one had been issued. And you're right that in a later speech where he got the facts straight he did not mention that at the CNN Town Hall earlier that year he had spoken incorrectly. Why do you wish to rehash this?

Fauci has not corrected his blunder. And then Fauci is confused by the psychodynamics of a large part of the population.
Kleinman:
Do you think any of the thousands of people that died from covid at New York nursing homes had any comorbidities?
Percy:
Undoubtedly, but what point are you trying to make?

If you don't understand the effects of comorbidities on a superimposed respiratory infection, you won't ever understand this. What happened with all the expert advisors that Cuomo had? Didn't any of his expert advisors understand that there might be a problem putting covid patients in with people with comorbidities?
Kleinman:
Why did they draw their line for mask usage before July?
Percy:
I think you may be interpreting the graph incorrectly. Here it is again for reference:
The vertical line above the word July represents July 1. The yellow line indicates counties that before July 1 had no mask mandate but that implemented one beginning July 1.
The maroon line indicates counties that prior to July 1 had no mask mandate and after July 1 still had no mask mandate.
Within a couple weeks after July 1 the case rate in counties with a mandate ceased rising and began fluctuating within a narrow range, while the case rate in counties without a mandate just kept rising and rising.

Explain why the yellow line is labeled "Counties with a mandate" and that line starts at the same time as the maroon line. And why is the yellow line higher than the maroon line from before July until almost October?
Kleinman:
Any time you make a false accusation about what I said, I'm going to ask you to post the quote.
Percy:
I think you should defend yourself against all false accusations, but in the case of you saying, "Read the Bible and you can find out," it's right there in black and white in your Message 965.

What point is it that you're trying to make. Concerning how societies should set public health policies you said people should read their Bible. What did you mean by that? Do you think the holy books of other religions should also inform public health policies or only Christianity's.​

WHy don't you read that quote in context? Do you think you can make society generous by writing a law? You are very naive.
Kleinman:
Every time the issue of gun control comes up, there is an increase in the demand for guns. You still haven't told us if you think a person has a right of self defense.
Percy:
There *is* a thread for that topic. We know you know about it because you earlier threatened to trash that thread, too.

Why are you so afraid that somebody might say something that counters your naive thinking?
Kleinman:
Fear is not your enemy when it is appropriate,...
Percy:
What are you saying? That fear of guns is appropriate while fear of deadly disease is not?

Hasn't anyone explained the sympathetic nervous system to you?
Kleinman:
it is the emotion that kicks in when you have to defend yourself. It is an emotion that can be exploited falsely by businesses to market their products.
Percy:
You're describing the gun industry to a T. Do you think their profits based on fear are appropriate?

I understand your fear of guns. What you don't understand is that some people want to have a gun in order to defend themselves. You still haven't told us whether you think that people have a right to defend themselves.
Kleinman:
He said things that I've experienced and know to be true.
Percy:
You think many things that aren't true.

Sure, I check things out. I've learned that so-called experts don't always get it right.
Kleinman:
Physicians can change the data by the way they write the cause of death on a death certificate. You don't understand this.
Percy:
This is so simple that even children under 6 can understand it. What's missing is any support for your claim that physicians are purposefully lying on death certificates on a large scale country-wide.

I posted a video of a physician and a Minnesota state senator that questioned the cause of death data. And you won't post how many people had comorbidities and died with covid. Why shouldn't I say that you are lying about this because you won't post that data?
Kleinman:
That's why I continue to press you on this issue of comorbidities and causes of death. I've experienced how drug companies work and they have the money to corrupt government officials so they can sell more of their drugs. They use this to sell their product.
Percy:
It's a pretty safe bet that there's corruption everywhere out there that we don't know about, but until you have evidence all you've got is a baseless conspiracy theory. Maybe what you're making up is actually true, but you still need evidence.

It would never enter your mind that corrupted people would work to hide the data that reveals their corruption. You are naive.
Kleinman:
Do you know that coronavirus has been around for years, it has been associated with common colds.
Percy:
Yes. And your point is?

Has anyone died with coronavirus and also had comorbidities before the covid episode?
Kleinman:
And you take being banned from a Chinese-owned TikTok as an indication that he's an anti-vaxxer. You are naive.
Percy:
He was banned from TikTok for promoting falsehoods about vaccines. From TikTok bans Minnesota gubernatorial candidate Scott Jensen over COVID-19 misinformation:
(FOX 9) - TikTok removed Minnesota gubernatorial candidate Scott Jensen's account for spreading misinformation on COVID-19 guidelines, a spokesperson confirmed to FOX 9.
But he's a physician and a state legislator with views you agree with, so to you he couldn't possibly be wrong and hang the facts.

You still haven't posted his quote. But that's your modus operandi. You post a quote from someone that doesn't say what Scott Jensen said, and that's enough for you.
Kleinman:
So you think the drug companies don't advertise? You don't understand why they do it and are really naive.
Percy:
You are once again replying to something that only you said.

Are you really that naive that people do things to influence you.
Kleinman:
Next, you are going to tell us that thousands of people didn't die because of Cuomo's policy and that Cuomo is still the governor of New York.
Percy:
I'll just continue to repeat what is true. Cuomo didn't confine patients in nursing homes. He prevented nursing homes from using covid status in making admission decisions.

Cuomo prevented people from making decisions that could have prevented thousands of deaths no matter how you want to spin it.
Kleinman:
You are the one that rushed out and got a covid booster shot.
Percy:
You sure sound like an anti-vaxxer.

The evidence suggests that the booster is prudent for our age group, especially since we plan to attend a large wedding and then travel over the next couple months.

You hear what you want to hear. You are ripe to get a booster for the booster. Does that make you saved twice over?
Kleinman:
And you are the one that wants to put sanctions on people that don't get vaccinated.
Percy:
You are once again responding to something that only you said.

Haven't you figured out yet that both vaccinated and un-vaccinated people can spread the virus? We should lock everyone up in solitary confinement. That would solve the problem.
Kleinman:
You want to force people to get electric cars when the infrastructure can't support it,...
Percy:
Again, this is something that only you said.

Don't you know that electric cars will save the planet?
Kleinman:
...people like you throw the anti-science accusation around but can't explain the Kishony and Lenski experiments,...
Percy:
If you don't want to be perceived as anti-science then stop behaving like you are. Try displaying a measured scientific temperament that gives fair and balanced consideration to evidence instead of going off the deep end with endless false accusations and mischaracterizations and conspiracy theory advocacy.

Oh, pardon me, I didn't know that bringing up the laws of physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence was misbehaving. I'll have to learn that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals and say, "Everybody knows that" because that is how biologists practice science.
Kleinman:
...and scream about global warming and the sea level rising while Obama buys a house on the beach.
Percy:
The elevation of the house itself is only 8 feet. On the surface it doesn't seem like a prudent purchase, but I don't know any of the weather related history.

It's a typical example of "do as I say, not as I do".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1031 by Percy, posted 04-25-2023 10:38 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1035 by xongsmith, posted 04-25-2023 1:37 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 1042 by Percy, posted 04-25-2023 5:29 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 354 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1034 of 1110 (910492)
04-25-2023 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1032 by Percy
04-25-2023 10:56 AM


Re: Excess Mortality
Percy:
I gave you a link to the info a couple messages ago (Comorbidities and other conditions), but what's important is excess deaths. If Jensen's claim is correct that many who died of covid whould have died anyway of other causes within two or three years then that will show up as a dip in excess deaths into the significantly negative.
Kleinman:
Why don't you post the number of people that died with covid and also had comorbidities?
Percy:
Like I said, I already provided a link to that information. But that information by itself can't tell you whether they would have died anyway within 2 or 3 years. The best information for that would be excess death data, which we'll have to wait for.


You still refuse to post a quote from your links that shows how many people died with covid and also had comorbidities. Should a person with terminal cancer and dies be reported as dying from covid, or should covid be considered a contributing factor?
Kleinman:
What does the evidence say is the number of people that died with covid and had comorbidities?
Percy:
You have the information. If you think it's relevant then tell us.

You posted the links. Post quotes from your links that you think are relevant.
Kleinman:
What about when the death rates are higher with masks than without masks? What's your spin on that?
Percy:
That would be counterintuitive. What would be the mechanism for such an effect? Do you have links to studies showing this? Zacharias Fögen speculates in his paper A mechanism by which facemasks contribute to the COVID-19 case fatality rate about a "Fögen effect". One has to wonder about someone who names an effect for himself. There's also Correlation Between Mask Compliance and COVID-19 Outcomes in Europe by Beny Spira.

But a review (Scientific evidence shows that mask-wearing is effective at limiting community transmission; claims that face masks increase mortality are based on flawed correlation studies) found both studies to be seriously flawed.

But take a look at the papers and see what you think.
Kleinman:
Aren't you able to post the data to support your argument?
Percy:
I don't have an argument. I provided a few links and suggested you look at them to see what you think. Do the papers describe the same issues that you're concerned about.



If you think you have something relevant in your links, why don't your quote it? Why are incidence rates higher for several months for people wearing masks when compared to people not wearing masks? You posted the graph.
Kleinman:
You posted a graph that shows an increased incidence of covid infection in people wearing masks than in people not wearing masks.
Percy:
No, it wasn't me. If such a graph was posted here I don't recall it.

You make me think of an old joke. There are two signs of Alzheimer's, one sign is the loss of memory, I can't remember what the other one is.
Kleinman:
You could think that, but you would be wrong. I think I've spent a little more time and effort on the study of healthcare than you have. I didn't do this so that I would hurt people.
Percy:
You don't *want* to hurt people, I'm sure, but that's what you're doing.

Children always think I'm try to hurt them when I give them a shot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1032 by Percy, posted 04-25-2023 10:56 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1046 by Percy, posted 04-25-2023 7:07 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2587
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.7


(2)
Message 1035 of 1110 (910494)
04-25-2023 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1033 by Kleinman
04-25-2023 12:22 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Klienman argues that at the beginning Masks were counter=productive:
Percy writes:
The vertical line above the word July represents July 1. The yellow line indicates counties that before July 1 had no mask mandate but that implemented one beginning July 1.
The maroon line indicates counties that prior to July 1 had no mask mandate and after July 1 still had no mask mandate.
Within a couple weeks after July 1 the case rate in counties with a mandate ceased rising and began fluctuating within a narrow range, while the case rate in counties without a mandate just kept rising and rising.
Explain why the yellow line is labeled "Counties with a mandate" and that line starts at the same time as the maroon line. And why is the yellow line higher than the maroon line from before July until almost October?
I would think that it took from July to October for those mandated counties to learn how to use masks. Perhaps at the beginning they were isolated from populations and never got exposed and then looked over at the first group. They start to see an increase in their group and said "Uh oh, it's happening to us to now! - we better do something!". The first group had a huge increase, then a sudden, unexplained drop then a gradual increase, then an overwhelming increase. we dont know the rural-urban split of the counties. the real question is what was going on with the first maroon group. did they panic and just stay home? What year was this?
Side note:
It is so hard for my eyes to read things with white backgrounds. the orange line is almost like it was made with invisible ink.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1033 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 12:22 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1036 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 2:56 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
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