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Author Topic:   COVID vaccine works - we're saved!
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 386 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1036 of 1110 (910496)
04-25-2023 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1035 by xongsmith
04-25-2023 1:37 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
xongsmith:
I would think that it took from July to October for those mandated counties to learn how to use masks. Perhaps at the beginning they were isolated from populations and never got exposed and then looked over at the first group. They start to see an increase in their group and said "Uh oh, it's happening to us to now! - we better do something!". The first group had a huge increase, then a sudden, unexplained drop then a gradual increase, then an overwhelming increase. we dont know the rural-urban split of the counties. the real question is what was going on with the first maroon group. did they panic and just stay home? What year was this?
You have a problem with that argument. Why would a population not wearing masks have a lower incidence of covid than a population wearing masks improperly? Wouldn't wearing a mask improperly be similar to not wearing a mask and lead to similar dissemination of the disease? As for the "large" increase seen in the non-mask-wearing population, the increase is to about 30 new covid patients per 100,000 per day for a few days drops down fairly rapidly in about a month in the May/June time period. Then you see a rise in incidence for mask wearers to about 20 new covid patients per 100,000 per day for a few days in July while non-mask wearers see a much slower increase in incidence. It wouldn't surprise me at all if social distancing helps much more than wearing a mask. But that variable is not included in the graph. My suggestion to people not wanting to contract air-borne disease is to try to not let people cough, sneeze, or breath on them. I have used this strategy for years when seeing patients with infectious diseases in the close confines of an examination room and it seems to have worked ok. But. wear a mask if it makes you feel more secure.
xongsmith:
Side note:
It is so hard for my eyes to read things with white backgrounds. the orange line is almost like it was made with invisible ink.
Sorry to hear that. I tried a little experiment by copying the image and then pasting it into Paint. I then used the fill tool and set it to fill an area with light blue (if that color doesn't work, choose another color). Not only is the graph magnified but when the white areas are colored light blue, it is much easier to see the plot lines.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1035 by xongsmith, posted 04-25-2023 1:37 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22554
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 1037 of 1110 (910497)
04-25-2023 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1030 by Kleinman
04-25-2023 10:18 AM


Re: Dr. Fauci Speaks
Kleinman writes:
Percy:
An Interview with Dr. Anthony Fauci by David Wallace-Wells appears in today's New York Times magazine. It is lengthy. Here are some excerpts. Sorry for the length, I tried to focus on the key issues, but this is much, much shorter than the full interview:
Percy, you completely miss the point.
There was no point to miss. That message was informational with excerpts from an interview with Dr. Fauci that appeared in today's New York Times Magazine. It wasn't addressed to anyone in particular, just the thread in general. I posted it today because it appeared in the paper today. It wasn't a response to anything you or anyone said.
Aside from the fact that Fauci gave extremely bad advice about vaccinations that Joe Biden passed along, advice which any medical student that has studied pathology would understand that vaccines don't stop the possibility of being infected or the possibility that a vaccinated person can spread the infection. This was done by the "top medical expert" in our government.
Repeating mistaken claims over and over doesn't make them any less mistaken.
What you do as a worshipper of Fauci (and "government experts") is label someone who questions the efficacy and safety of a vaccine, an "anti-vaxxer".
I don't understand why anti-vaxxers like you and Jensen try to disguise the fact that you're anti-vaxxers.
This is not only wrong but shuts down the discussion from people that may have something to offer in the situation.
You have not as yet demonstrated any interest in discussion in this thread. Your attitude seems to be, "If I can cast the best insults and make the best distortions then my position will prevail."
Or perhaps you think that the only people that have something to offer are government employees?
You're the only one saying things like this.
Fauci has no idea why so many people don't listen to him. Perhaps it is because he actually doesn't understand the problem he is supposed to be dealing with.
That's what you say about everyone. You rarely make any actual arguments, just cast insults, accusations of various lacks, and make mischaracterizations of what people say or believe. You're a font of falsity.
It doesn't take an expert in psychodynamics to see this. What Fauci does have is the power to allocate grant money, and anyone trying to get that money had better not criticize what Fauci says. You are extremely naive Percy.
Fauci left his position last December, and you're again spouting baseless conspiracy theories.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1030 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 10:18 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1038 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 4:02 PM Percy has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 386 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1038 of 1110 (910498)
04-25-2023 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1037 by Percy
04-25-2023 3:46 PM


Re: Dr. Fauci Speaks
Percy:
An Interview with Dr. Anthony Fauci by David Wallace-Wells appears in today's New York Times magazine. It is lengthy. Here are some excerpts. Sorry for the length, I tried to focus on the key issues, but this is much, much shorter than the full interview:
Kleinman:
Percy, you completely miss the point.
Percy:
There was no point to miss. That message was informational with excerpts from an interview with Dr. Fauci that appeared in today's New York Times Magazine. It wasn't addressed to anyone in particular, just the thread in general. I posted it today because it appeared in the paper today. It wasn't a response to anything you or anyone said.


Whatever
Kleinman:
Aside from the fact that Fauci gave extremely bad advice about vaccinations that Joe Biden passed along, advice which any medical student that has studied pathology would understand that vaccines don't stop the possibility of being infected or the possibility that a vaccinated person can spread the infection. This was done by the "top medical expert" in our government.
Percy:
Repeating mistaken claims over and over doesn't make them any less mistaken.

This incorrect notion came from somewhere. Joe Biden made the claim. Where do you think Joe Biden gets his expert advice?
Kleinman:
What you do as a worshipper of Fauci (and "government experts") is label someone who questions the efficacy and safety of a vaccine, an "anti-vaxxer".
Percy:
I don't understand why anti-vaxxers like you and Jensen try to disguise the fact that you're anti-vaxxers.

Percy is an expert in vaccines.
Kleinman:
This is not only wrong but shuts down the discussion from people that may have something to offer in the situation.
Percy:
You have not as yet demonstrated any interest in discussion in this thread. Your attitude seems to be, "If I can cast the best insults and make the best distortions then my position will prevail."

Try to explain how comorbidities affect the data for the death rate from covid.
Kleinman:
Or perhaps you think that the only people that have something to offer are government employees?
Percy:
You're the only one saying things like this.

Go ahead, take whatever advice Fauci has to offer.
Kleinman:
Fauci has no idea why so many people don't listen to him. Perhaps it is because he actually doesn't understand the problem he is supposed to be dealing with.
Percy:
That's what you say about everyone. You rarely make any actual arguments, just cast insults, accusations of various lacks, and make mischaracterizations of what people say or believe. You're a font of falsity.

Believe what you want to believe.
Kleinman:
It doesn't take an expert in psychodynamics to see this. What Fauci does have is the power to allocate grant money, and anyone trying to get that money had better not criticize what Fauci says. You are extremely naive Percy.
Percy:
Fauci left his position last December, and you're again spouting baseless conspiracy theories.

There goes Fauci's power.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1037 by Percy, posted 04-25-2023 3:46 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1050 by Percy, posted 04-25-2023 7:17 PM Kleinman has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5958
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 6.2


(1)
Message 1039 of 1110 (910499)
04-25-2023 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 976 by Kleinman
04-21-2023 6:08 PM


Re: The Right to Spread the GOD thing
I have two motives for studying evolution.
Then why didn't you study evolution? Everything you have written tells us that you never learned anything about the subject.
Or did you "learn" it from creationists? If so, then you must realize that creationists lie! They have to lie, because they believe that reality disproves their god, which forces their entire position to be disproving reality.
The second is to test whether the theory of evolution refutes my belief in God.
Why would evolution refute your belief in God? Why would you even think that could be the case?
For that matter, why would you think that evolution or any other scientific idea would have anything to do with any religion, let alone yours? You are making absolutely no sense there!
The only explanations I can think of for your confusion would be that you hold false ideas; eg:
  1. You think that evolution is something entirely different from what it actually is.
  2. Your religious beliefs include requirements that reality not be as it actually is (eg, young earth, men having one rib less than women, etc).
Or some combination thereof. Compounding the problems of such false ideas is that they are de rigueur in those religious communities that foolishly base their faith on false creationist theology.
So then does your faith place such requirements on you such that you must misunderstand evolution?
Is it really possible that life started in some primordial soup and through a process of descent with modification, we arrived?
Does that mean that you make the typical creationist mistake of confusing evolution and abiogenesis? Or mistakenly thinking that evolution depends on abiogenesis or, even worse, that abiogenesis depends on evolution?
Evolution depends on replication/reproduction and therefore could play no role in abiogenesis until the candidates for proto-life could replicate. Similarly, evolution is an integral part of life and living populations, so regardless of how life got started it would evolve. Evolution still happens whether life arose through natural processes or by being poofed magically into existence.
Biologists are not doing their job.
Doch! (German for negating a negative assertion; can be translated as "Oh yes they are!")
Biologists are indeed doing their job. It's biology educators who had failing to properly educate their students in biology. That failure is due to a number of factors including:
  • Inadequate training. Not all biology teachers have been educated in the subject themselves. In many school districts, teachers are assigned to teach classes in subjects in which they have received no training, thus making them heavily dependent on the textbook.
    For example, my younger son's jr. high biology teacher was the home-ec teacher; his fellow students kept coming to him with their questions because he knew more than the teacher did.
    Another example was John Peloza whose academic background was Physical Education (PE) with a Bachelor's in PE and an MS Education with a disertation on coaching softball. He was hired to teach on Santa Catalina Island where he ended up teaching biology, which he parlayed into teaching high school biolgy in San Juan Capistrano. Fellow teachers knew that he had taken the bare minimum biology classes in college and, having heard him give a presentation, I identified everything that he had to say about biology as coming straight from the Institute for Creation Research (ICR), the creators of "creation science".
    Ironically, John Scopes was also a PE teacher. He volunteered to provide the ACLU with a test case against the Tennessee "monkey law" (the Butler Act, 1925) by giving a guest lecture that mentioned the "e-word" (evolution).
  • Most textbooks are sub-standard and filled with errors. This is both because textbooks are written by professional textbook writers instead of by experts in the subject matter, and also because of pressure on the publishers by special-interest groups (in this case creationists).
    A case in point was in the late 1980's when California was looking for a new high school biology textbook. Bill Bennetta of The Textbook League recruited a panel of biologists to review the candidate books. That panel found none of the books to be acceptable since they were riddled with errors and misconceptions, all of which they listed in their report. The state board gave that list to the least offender who made a few corrections, after which the board approved their book behind the scientists' backs. The biology classes still ended up being taught errors and misconceptions instead of biology.
    We should note that at least in college the textbooks are written by experts in the subject matter, but the damage is already done for those who do not take biology in college. An additional wrinkle was reported by Dr. Eugenie Scott, PhD Biological Anthropology and former Executive Director of the National Center for Science Education (NCSE). She reported that many colleges and universities do not teach evolution to their biology undergrads (hopefully, that is corrected for the postgrads, but she didn't mention that).
  • The creationist crusade against biology education.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 976 by Kleinman, posted 04-21-2023 6:08 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1040 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 4:53 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 386 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1040 of 1110 (910501)
04-25-2023 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1039 by dwise1
04-25-2023 4:07 PM


Re: The Right to Spread the GOD thing
Kleinman:
I have two motives for studying evolution.
dwise1:
Then why didn't you study evolution? Everything you have written tells us that you never learned anything about the subject.

dwise1 will now explain the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments and why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutational step. You can do it dwise1. Just use the "at least one" and the multiplication rule for computing the probability of joint random events.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1039 by dwise1, posted 04-25-2023 4:07 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1041 by dwise1, posted 04-25-2023 5:13 PM Kleinman has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5958
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 6.2


(3)
Message 1041 of 1110 (910503)
04-25-2023 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1040 by Kleinman
04-25-2023 4:53 PM


Re: The Right to Spread the GOD thing
Sadly, you demonstrate yet again your complete and utter ignorance and stupidity.
You cannot even begin to explain why you hold such stupid misconceptions about evolution, so you revert immediately into regurgitation mode. What a fucking idiot you are!
But why restrict your moronic anger to evolution when so many other scientific ideas pose just as much danger to your silly religious ideas?
You may as well question gravity since it eliminates the need to deploy angels to move the planets in their orbits? Gravity eliminates the angels!
Or ballistics which eliminate the need to assign a demon to ride on each bullet and cannon ball in order to guide it to its target?
Or that major offense against God, static electricity (especially static electricity!), which led to Ben Franklin inventing the infernal lightning rod which renders impotent the Finger of God and hence renders God Himself impotent to smite down sinners.
 
In short, there is no inherent conflict between evolution and Creation, so there is no reason at all why evolution could possibly "refute" one's belief in God. None whatsoever.
Unless one believes really stupid things about God. Which obviously you do. And which you are too afraid to even think about.
How pathetic!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1040 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 4:53 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1045 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 7:07 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22554
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 1042 of 1110 (910504)
04-25-2023 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1033 by Kleinman
04-25-2023 12:22 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
The power that Fauci has was used extremely poorly. He misled Biden about vaccines and Fauci never corrected his blunder which any third-year medical student could understand was a blunder.
...
Fauci has not corrected his blunder. And then Fauci is confused by the psychodynamics of a large part of the population.
Repeating mistaken information over and over doesn't make it any less mistaken.
If you don't understand the effects of comorbidities on a superimposed respiratory infection, you won't ever understand this. What happened with all the expert advisors that Cuomo had? Didn't any of his expert advisors understand that there might be a problem putting covid patients in with people with comorbidities?
Yes, Kleinman, we know. No one understands anything except you.
You have no evidence that a great many covid deaths were of people with comorbidities who would have died within 2 to 3 years anyway. You'll just have to wait for the data on excess deaths.
Explain why the yellow line is labeled "Counties with a mandate" and that line starts at the same time as the maroon line.
The yellow line represents those counties that adopted a mandate on July 1. The yellow line prior to July 1 is for the exact same counties as after July 1.
And why is the yellow line higher than the maroon line from before July until almost October?
You asked this once already and the answer hasn't changed. There's not enough data in the graph to answer that question, but one possible answer is that they're denser more urban counties where spread is faster.
A question you didn't ask was about the maroon line's sudden peak in the May/June timeframe. There's not enough data to answer that question, either.
But Trends in County-Level COVID-19 Incidence in Counties With and Without a Mask Mandate — Kansas, June 1–August 23, 2020 | MMWR tells us that as on July 1, 2020, 24 Kansas counties adopted mask mandates and 81 did not. Those 24 counties accounted for 67.3% of the Kansas population, and 6 of them representing 25% of the state's population were metropolitan. This means my surmise that the counties with mask mandates tended to be more urban was correct. The article also stated that counties with mask mandates were also more likely to adopt other measures, such as limits of gatherings and the occupancy limits for restaurants.
WHy don't you read that quote in context? Do you think you can make society generous by writing a law? You are very naive.
Healthcare was the context, not generosity, but if that's why you said it then fine. The question remains, what do you think society's goals should be regarding healthcare?
Why are you so afraid that somebody might say something that counters your naive thinking?
What have you got against staying on topic?
Hasn't anyone explained the sympathetic nervous system to you?
The actual question was that if fear of illness renders drug company profits inappropriate, then doesn't fear of guns render gun industry profits inappropriate?
If you'd like to discuss gun control then you're in the wrong topic.
Sure, I check things out. I've learned that so-called experts don't always get it right.
And yet all you're able to do is cast unsupported aspersions without ever backing them up with actual data.
It would never enter your mind that corrupted people would work to hide the data that reveals their corruption. You are naive.
That's the most common quality of conspiracy theories: unverifiability. For conspiracy theorists, lack of evidence is proof something is true.
Percy:
Yes. And your point is?
Has anyone died with coronavirus and also had comorbidities before the covid episode?
That's not a point, that's a question. Do you have a point?
You still haven't posted his quote. But that's your modus operandi. You post a quote from someone that doesn't say what Scott Jensen said, and that's enough for you.
You're the only one talking about a quote. I did post an excerpt from a Fox News item saying Jensen was banned from TikTok for "spreading misinformation on COVID-19 guidelines."
Are you really that naive that people do things to influence you.
You're still replying to things only you said. You have this strange habit of claiming people believe things they've never said and then asking or commenting about it. You're basically having a conversation with yourself.
Cuomo prevented people from making decisions that could have prevented thousands of deaths no matter how you want to spin it.
There's no evidence for that, either. What we do know is that Cuomo prevented nursing homes from including covid status as a part of making admission decisions, and that he hid the data about nursing home covid deaths. According to New York COVID-19 nursing home scandal - Wikipedia, the Cuomo administration purposefully omitted 9250 elderly covid deaths from a state health department report. I was unable to find how many of those deaths were determined to be due to the Cuomo policy.
You seem to believe that Cuomo's grave misconduct means you can just make up other stuff. But what Cuomo actually did was bad enough all by itself (don't forget the sexual harassment). There's no need to make stuff up.
You hear what you want to hear. You are ripe to get a booster for the booster. Does that make you saved twice over?
Spoken like a true anti-vaxxer.
Haven't you figured out yet that both vaccinated and un-vaccinated people can spread the virus? We should lock everyone up in solitary confinement. That would solve the problem.
...
Don't you know that electric cars will save the planet?
...
Oh, pardon me, I didn't know that bringing up the laws of physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence was misbehaving. I'll have to learn that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals and say, "Everybody knows that" because that is how biologists practice science.
You are still responding to things only you said. I hope you're enjoying the conversation with yourself.
Kleinman:
...and scream about global warming and the sea level rising while Obama buys a house on the beach.
Percy:
The elevation of the house itself is only 8 feet. On the surface it doesn't seem like a prudent purchase, but I don't know any of the weather related history.

It's a typical example of "do as I say, not as I do".
Why don't you quote Obama telling people not to buy beach property? As I said, it doesn't seem like a prudent purchase. It's well known in these parts that Martha's Vineyard will likely suffer severe impacts from climate change, some think sooner rather than later.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1033 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 12:22 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1043 by xongsmith, posted 04-25-2023 5:53 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1047 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 7:14 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2592
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(5)
Message 1043 of 1110 (910505)
04-25-2023 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1042 by Percy
04-25-2023 5:29 PM


Re: The Right to Kick Off Assholes
Percy - would you please kick this Asshole off EvC, somewhere way out beyond Voyager I, immediately?
I don't think anyone else here wants his ass shitting all over your excellent discussion board anymore.
Or let's take a poll?
I'm normally not in favor of any kind of censorship, but in this case...
PUT ME DOWN for it.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1042 by Percy, posted 04-25-2023 5:29 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1044 by AZPaul3, posted 04-25-2023 6:37 PM xongsmith has not replied
 Message 1048 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 7:15 PM xongsmith has not replied
 Message 1057 by Tangle, posted 04-26-2023 3:24 AM xongsmith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 1044 of 1110 (910506)
04-25-2023 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1043 by xongsmith
04-25-2023 5:53 PM


Re: The Right to Kick Off Assholes
Well ... I like watching Percy play with his toy.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1043 by xongsmith, posted 04-25-2023 5:53 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1051 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 7:18 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 386 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1045 of 1110 (910507)
04-25-2023 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1041 by dwise1
04-25-2023 5:13 PM


Re: The Right to Spread the GOD thing
dwise1:
Sadly, you demonstrate yet again your complete and utter ignorance and stupidity.
Are you still having difficulty doing the mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments and explaining why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive step? Try again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1041 by dwise1, posted 04-25-2023 5:13 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22554
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 1046 of 1110 (910508)
04-25-2023 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1034 by Kleinman
04-25-2023 12:47 PM


Re: Excess Mortality
Kleinman writes:
You still refuse to post a quote from your links that shows how many people died with covid and also had comorbidities. Should a person with terminal cancer and dies be reported as dying from covid, or should covid be considered a contributing factor?
...
You posted the links. Post quotes from your links that you think are relevant.
It was just one link and you weren't clear about precisely what data you needed. Is the data in this link what you want: Comorbidities and other conditions. I have no idea what point you're trying to make regarding comorbidities, so only you know if that data is what you want.
If you think you have something relevant in your links, why don't your quote it? Why are incidence rates higher for several months for people wearing masks when compared to people not wearing masks? You posted the graph.
You've lost the plot. You hinted that papers on masks causing worse covid outcomes existed:
Kleinman in Message 1028 writes:
What about when the death rates are higher with masks than without masks? What's your spin on that?
So I found a couple papers that seemed to be what you were referring to and posted them. Are they about the kinds of effects you're thinking of?
About this again:
You posted a graph that shows an increased incidence of covid infection in people wearing masks than in people not wearing masks.
Again, I posted no such graph. If you're really so sure I did then it should be easy for you to find.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1034 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 12:47 PM Kleinman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1049 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-25-2023 7:17 PM Percy has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 386 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1047 of 1110 (910509)
04-25-2023 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1042 by Percy
04-25-2023 5:29 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
The power that Fauci has was used extremely poorly. He misled Biden about vaccines and Fauci never corrected his blunder which any third-year medical student could understand was a blunder.
...
Fauci has not corrected his blunder. And then Fauci is confused by the psychodynamics of a large part of the population.
Percy:
Repeating mistaken information over and over doesn't make it any less mistaken.

Maybe Biden got the wrong information about vaccinations from Cornpop?
Kleinman:
If you don't understand the effects of comorbidities on a superimposed respiratory infection, you won't ever understand this. What happened with all the expert advisors that Cuomo had? Didn't any of his expert advisors understand that there might be a problem putting covid patients in with people with comorbidities?
Percy:
Yes, Kleinman, we know. No one understands anything except you.

You have no evidence that a great many covid deaths were of people with comorbidities who would have died within 2 to 3 years anyway. You'll just have to wait for the data on excess deaths.​

Wasn't the US Olympic team staying at a New York nursing home when hit by covid?
Kleinman:
Explain why the yellow line is labeled "Counties with a mandate" and that line starts at the same time as the maroon line.
Percy:
The yellow line represents those counties that adopted a mandate on July 1. The yellow line prior to July 1 is for the exact same counties as after July 1.

I see, the rest of the counties in yellow before July were yellow because they were mellow.
Kleinman:
And why is the yellow line higher than the maroon line from before July until almost October?
Percy:
You asked this once already and the answer hasn't changed. There's not enough data in the graph to answer that question, but one possible answer is that they're denser more urban counties where spread is faster.

A question you didn't ask was about the maroon line's sudden peak in the May/June timeframe. There's not enough data to answer that question, either.

But Trends in County-Level COVID-19 Incidence in Counties With and Without a Mask Mandate — Kansas, June 1–August 23, 2020 | MMWR tells us that as on July 1, 2020, 24 Kansas counties adopted mask mandates and 81 did not. Those 24 counties accounted for 67.3% of the Kansas population, and 6 of them representing 25% of the state's population were metropolitan. This means my surmise that the counties with mask mandates tended to be more urban was correct. The article also stated that counties with mask mandates were also more likely to adopt other measures, such as limits of gatherings and the occupancy limits for restaurants.

That's a great fish story. You got anything else?
Kleinman:
WHy don't you read that quote in context? Do you think you can make society generous by writing a law? You are very naive.
Percy:
Healthcare was the context, not generosity, but if that's why you said it then fine. The question remains, what do you think society's goals should be regarding healthcare?

Percy, I'm going to tell you a secret but you have to promise you won't tell anyone else. Are you ready? It costs money to provide health care. Now keep it under your hat.
Kleinman:
Why are you so afraid that somebody might say something that counters your naive thinking?
Percy:
What have you got against staying on topic?

Vaccines cost money too.
Kleinman:
Hasn't anyone explained the sympathetic nervous system to you?
Percy:
The actual question was that if fear of illness renders drug company profits inappropriate, then doesn't fear of guns render gun industry profits inappropriate?

If you'd like to discuss gun control then you're in the wrong topic.

It's all about an appropriate response to fear. Some people panic, Percy.
Kleinman:
Sure, I check things out. I've learned that so-called experts don't always get it right.
Percy:
And yet all you're able to do is cast unsupported aspersions without ever backing them up with actual data.

I assure you that my aspersions are very well supported.
Kleinman:
It would never enter your mind that corrupted people would work to hide the data that reveals their corruption. You are naive.
Percy:
That's the most common quality of conspiracy theories: unverifiability. For conspiracy theorists, lack of evidence is proof something is true.

You will just have to wait for the data. It will come about at the same time as the data for comorbidities and their effect on death rates due to covid.
Percy:
Yes. And your point is?
Kleinman:
Has anyone died with coronavirus and also had comorbidities before the covid episode?
Percy:
That's not a point, that's a question. Do you have a point?


It's a pointed question. You'll have to wait until the data comes in.
Kleinman:
You still haven't posted his quote. But that's your modus operandi. You post a quote from someone that doesn't say what Scott Jensen said, and that's enough for you.
Percy:
You're the only one talking about a quote. I did post an excerpt from a Fox News item saying Jensen was banned from TikTok for "spreading misinformation on COVID-19 guidelines."

So now you are getting your expert advice from TikTok. When are you going to ask Opus for advice?
Kleinman:
Are you really that naive that people do things to influence you.
Percy:
You're still replying to things only you said. You have this strange habit of claiming people believe things they've never said and then asking or commenting about it. You're basically having a conversation with yourself.

Do you really believe that someone else should pay for your covid booster?
Kleinman:
Cuomo prevented people from making decisions that could have prevented thousands of deaths no matter how you want to spin it.
Percy:
There's no evidence for that, either. What we do know is that Cuomo prevented nursing homes from including covid status as a part of making admission decisions, and that he hid the data about nursing home covid deaths. According to New York COVID-19 nursing home scandal - Wikipedia, the Cuomo administration purposefully omitted 9250 elderly covid deaths from a state health department report. I was unable to find how many of those deaths were determined to be due to the Cuomo policy.

You seem to believe that Cuomo's grave misconduct means you can just make up other stuff. But what Cuomo actually did was bad enough all by itself (don't forget the sexual harassment). There's no need to make stuff up.

Now Percy thinks that no one died with covid in New York nursing homes. Don't you ever read the newspapers beside the funny page with Opus?
Kleinman:
You hear what you want to hear. You are ripe to get a booster for the booster. Does that make you saved twice over?
Percy:
Spoken like a true anti-vaxxer.

Why do you think you need a booster for a booster?
Kleinman:
Haven't you figured out yet that both vaccinated and un-vaccinated people can spread the virus? We should lock everyone up in solitary confinement. That would solve the problem.
...
Don't you know that electric cars will save the planet?
...
Oh, pardon me, I didn't know that bringing up the laws of physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence was misbehaving. I'll have to learn that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals and say, "Everybody knows that" because that is how biologists practice science.
Percy:
You are still responding to things only you said. I hope you're enjoying the conversation with yourself.

Maybe you can get a solar-powered booster?
Kleinman:
...and scream about global warming and the sea level rising while Obama buys a house on the beach.
Percy:
The elevation of the house itself is only 8 feet. On the surface it doesn't seem like a prudent purchase, but I don't know any of the weather related history.
Kleinman:
It's a typical example of "do as I say, not as I do".
Percy:
Why don't you quote Obama telling people not to buy beach property? As I said, it doesn't seem like a prudent purchase. It's well known in these parts that Martha's Vineyard will likely suffer severe impacts from climate change, some think sooner rather than later.



From Obama's 2015 State of the Union:
Obama's 2015 State of the Union address – full text | State of the Union address | The Guardian
And the best scientists in the world are all telling us that our activities are changing the climate, and if we don’t act forcefully, we’ll continue to see rising oceans, longer, hotter heat waves, dangerous droughts and floods, and massive disruptions that can trigger greater migration and conflict and hunger around the globe.
It is impressive that the former president is sacrificing himself for society by buying a beachfront home in Martha's Vineyard. Few have done such a valiant deed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1042 by Percy, posted 04-25-2023 5:29 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 386 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1048 of 1110 (910510)
04-25-2023 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1043 by xongsmith
04-25-2023 5:53 PM


Re: The Right to Kick Off Assholes
xongsmith:
Percy - would you please kick this Asshole off EvC, somewhere way out beyond Voyager I, immediately?

I don't think anyone else here wants his ass shitting all over your excellent discussion board anymore.

Or let's take a poll?
I'm normally not in favor of any kind of censorship, but in this case...

PUT ME DOWN for it.
Why xongsmith, are you tired of making fun of me so soon?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1043 by xongsmith, posted 04-25-2023 5:53 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4473
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1049 of 1110 (910511)
04-25-2023 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1046 by Percy
04-25-2023 7:07 PM


Re: Excess Mortality
Again, I posted no such graph. If you're really so sure I did then it should be easy for you to find.
I think he's referring to your Kansas graph, maybe?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1046 by Percy, posted 04-25-2023 7:07 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1053 by Percy, posted 04-25-2023 7:42 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1054 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 7:49 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22554
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 1050 of 1110 (910512)
04-25-2023 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1038 by Kleinman
04-25-2023 4:02 PM


Re: Dr. Fauci Speaks
Kleinman writes:
Whatever
I think what you meant was, "Pardon me, my mistake."
This incorrect notion came from somewhere. Joe Biden made the claim. Where do you think Joe Biden gets his expert advice?
For the third time, I think Biden got it wrong all by himself. For some reason you keep rehashing this.
Percy:
I don't understand why anti-vaxxers like you and Jensen try to disguise the fact that you're anti-vaxxers.
Percy is an expert in vaccines.
Why not just be truthful about your position? It's not like you're fooling anyone.
Try to explain how comorbidities affect the data for the death rate from covid.
You are very repetitive. Does the link I provided have the data you want?
Go ahead, take whatever advice Fauci has to offer.
Again, this is just you talking to yourself.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1038 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 4:02 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1052 by Kleinman, posted 04-25-2023 7:39 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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