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Author Topic:   COVID vaccine works - we're saved!
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 856 of 1110 (910143)
04-17-2023 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 851 by Kleinman
04-17-2023 2:57 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
Kleinman:
Do you really think that the general population understands the optimum use of face masks?
Percy:
The article is not targeted at the general public. I think the intended audience understands it just fine.

Who is the target audience for the generalized use of masks?
As I said, the target audience for the article is not the general public but medical professionals, who understand the terminology just fine.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 851 by Kleinman, posted 04-17-2023 2:57 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 858 by Kleinman, posted 04-17-2023 5:46 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 857 of 1110 (910144)
04-17-2023 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 855 by Kleinman
04-17-2023 4:32 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
Where in that speech did Joe Biden correct his erroneous claim that vaccination prevents the spreading of Covid?
As I said, I could find no news item about a correction about his comments at the CNN Town Hall in July (Fact-checking Biden’s town hall on CNN). In the September speech (Remarks by President Biden on Fighting the COVID-⁠19 Pandemic) he states the case correctly.
And who is at risk from Covid, those that are vaccinated or those that are unvaccinated?
Statistically the unvaccinated are at greater risk for illness and death.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 855 by Kleinman, posted 04-17-2023 4:32 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 859 by Kleinman, posted 04-17-2023 5:51 PM Percy has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 858 of 1110 (910145)
04-17-2023 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 856 by Percy
04-17-2023 5:15 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Do you really think that the general population understands the optimum use of face masks?
Percy:
The article is not targeted at the general public. I think the intended audience understands it just fine.
Kleinman:
Who is the target audience for the generalized use of masks?
Percy:
As I said, the target audience for the article is not the general public but medical professionals, who understand the terminology just fine.



Do you think that generalized mask mandates are targeted only at medical professionals?
And in case you are interested, here is where Joe Biden got his expert advice that vaccinations prevent the spread of Covid.
https://thehill.com/...-become-dead-ends-for-the-coronavirus
Anthony Fauci said the following in a 2021 interview on "Face the Nation"
Fauci said:
Anthony Fauci, chief medical adviser to President Biden, said during a discussion on Sunday about the Center for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) decision to drop mask recommendations for fully vaccinated individuals that vaccinated people become “dead ends” for COVID-19.
Appearing on CBS’s “Face the Nation,” Fauci explained to host John Dickerson that fully vaccinated people can go without masks even if they have an asymptomatic case of COVID-19 because the level of virus is much lower in their nasopharynx, the top part of their throat that lies behind the nose, than it is in someone who is unvaccinated.
“So even though there are breakthrough infections with vaccinated people, almost always the people are asymptomatic and the level of virus is so low it makes it extremely unlikely — not impossible but very, very low likelihood — that they’re going to transmit it,” Fauci said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 856 by Percy, posted 04-17-2023 5:15 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 860 by Percy, posted 04-17-2023 8:48 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 859 of 1110 (910146)
04-17-2023 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 857 by Percy
04-17-2023 5:31 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Where in that speech did Joe Biden correct his erroneous claim that vaccination prevents the spreading of Covid?
Percy:
As I said, I could find no news item about a correction about his comments at the CNN Town Hall in July (Fact-checking Biden’s town hall on CNN). In the September speech (Remarks by President Biden on Fighting the COVID-⁠19 Pandemic) he states the case correctly.​

Where did he state the case correctly that vaccination does not prevent the spread of Covid?
Kleinman:
And who is at risk from Covid, those that are vaccinated or those that are unvaccinated?
Percy:
Statistically the unvaccinated are at greater risk for illness and death.

Should unvaccinated people be forced to take vaccination against their will?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 857 by Percy, posted 04-17-2023 5:31 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 861 by Percy, posted 04-17-2023 9:15 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 860 of 1110 (910147)
04-17-2023 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 858 by Kleinman
04-17-2023 5:46 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
Do you think that generalized mask mandates are targeted only at medical professionals?
No, I don't think that.
Anthony Fauci said the following in a 2021 interview on "Face the Nation"...
Even worse was when Fauci said early on during the pandemic that masks would provide little benefit to the general population. He later admitted that wasn't true, that he only said it out of concern for their availability to the medical community, especially of N95's.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 858 by Kleinman, posted 04-17-2023 5:46 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 862 by Kleinman, posted 04-18-2023 7:59 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 861 of 1110 (910148)
04-17-2023 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 859 by Kleinman
04-17-2023 5:51 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
Where did he state the case correctly that vaccination does not prevent the spread of Covid?
In Remarks by President Biden on Fighting the COVID-⁠19 Pandemic he talks not about vaccines preventing spread, which was incorrect, but about the protections vaccines provide:
Joe Biden:
While the vaccines provide strong protections for the vaccinated,...
...
And fourth, I want to emphasize that the vaccines provide very strong protection from severe illness from COVID-19... But the world’s leading scientists confirm that if you are fully vaccinated, your risk of severe illness from COVID-19 is very low.
In fact, based on available data from the summer, only one of out of every 160,000 fully vaccinated Americans was hospitalized for COVID per day.
...
We cannot allow these actions to stand in the way of protecting the large majority of Americans who have done their part and want to get back to life as normal.
...
But as the science makes clear, if you’re fully vaccinated, you’re highly protected from severe illness, even if you get COVID-19.
...
That’s where boosters come in — the shots that give you even more protection than after your second shot.
Moving on:
Should unvaccinated people be forced to take vaccination against their will?
Whose right is greater, that of people to experience a lower risk of infection out in public, or that of people who wish not to be vaccinated? I don't have an answer for you. I do believe that society is best served by individuals who have the best interests of their fellows at heart.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 859 by Kleinman, posted 04-17-2023 5:51 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 863 by Kleinman, posted 04-18-2023 8:01 AM Percy has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 862 of 1110 (910151)
04-18-2023 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 860 by Percy
04-17-2023 8:48 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Do you think that generalized mask mandates are targeted only at medical professionals?
Percy:
No, I don't think that.

Do you think that the general public understands what kind of mask to use and how to wear it?
Kleinman:
Anthony Fauci said the following in a 2021 interview on "Face the Nation"...
Percy:
Even worse was when Fauci said early on during the pandemic that masks would provide little benefit to the general population. He later admitted that wasn't true, that he only said it out of concern for their availability to the medical community, especially of N95's.

Do you think that an ineffective, improperly worn mask will be effective in preventing the spread of Covid or any other infectious disease? Fauci has little or no clinical experience and has little understanding of the general population and how they respond to the medical system and the medical advice we (physicians) give to people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 860 by Percy, posted 04-17-2023 8:48 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 864 by Percy, posted 04-18-2023 9:20 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 863 of 1110 (910152)
04-18-2023 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 861 by Percy
04-17-2023 9:15 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Where did he state the case correctly that vaccination does not prevent the spread of Covid?
Percy:
In Remarks by President Biden on Fighting the COVID-⁠19 Pandemic he talks not about vaccines preventing spread, which was incorrect, but about the protections vaccines provide:

Joe Biden didn't correct his erroneous claim that vaccines prevent the spread of infectious diseases. Why didn't he make this correction?
Kleinman:
Should unvaccinated people be forced to take vaccination against their will?
Percy:
Whose right is greater, that of people to experience a lower risk of infection out in public, or that of people who wish not to be vaccinated? I don't have an answer for you. I do believe that society is best served by individuals who have the best interests of their fellows at heart.

You have already said that unvaccinated people are at greater risk of illness and death from disease. If someone thinks they have the best interests of their fellows at heart, they don't do it by forcing people to do something against their will. They make their case and let people decide for themselves. You want to do it by making laws based on poor preparation and a false sense of security.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 861 by Percy, posted 04-17-2023 9:15 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 865 by Percy, posted 04-18-2023 9:49 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 864 of 1110 (910155)
04-18-2023 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 862 by Kleinman
04-18-2023 7:59 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
Do you think that the general public understands what kind of mask to use and how to wear it?
Judging by what I saw out in public during the mask-wearing phase, a significant proportion of people don't understand that gaps compromise mask effectiveness. The worst gaps occur when people wear the mask below the nose. I don't think the general public realizes how ineffective cloth masks are, or that surgical masks have a sort of running gap all around the edge.
I also don't know how much the general public is aware of the debate about the relative effectiveness of surgical versus N95 masks, but laboratory measurements indicate that N95's are far better at capturing small droplets than surgical masks, and they have a much better fit with far fewer gaps.
Do you think that an ineffective, improperly worn mask will be effective in preventing the spread of Covid or any other infectious disease?
It's a continuum. The better the mask and the more properly and consistently it is worn, particularly when other people are present, the more effective it will be at reducing the spread of respiratory disease.
Fauci has little or no clinical experience...
According to Wikipedia, that isn't an accurate statement:
Wikipedia on Anthony Fauci:
After completing his medical residency in 1968, Fauci joined the National Institutes of Health (NIH) as a clinical associate in the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases's (NIAID) Laboratory of Clinical Investigation (LCI). He became head of the LCI's Clinical Physiology Section in 1974, and in 1980 was appointed chief of the NIAID's Laboratory of Immunoregulation. He became director of the NIAID in 1984. Fauci has been offered the position of director of the NIH several times, but has declined each time.
...and has little understanding of the general population and how they respond to the medical system and the medical advice we (physicians) give to people.
The "general population" is a large and diverse group, significant proportions of which seem to behave in ways counter to their own best interests. There is a multiplicity of ways that members of this group respond to the medical community and medical advice. I would imagine that most physicians despair of ever developing a good feel for how they will behave.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 862 by Kleinman, posted 04-18-2023 7:59 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 866 by Kleinman, posted 04-18-2023 10:20 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 865 of 1110 (910156)
04-18-2023 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 863 by Kleinman
04-18-2023 8:01 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
Joe Biden didn't correct his erroneous claim that vaccines prevent the spread of infectious diseases. Why didn't he make this correction?
To me it's incomprehensible that the White House didn't issue a correction (or at least none that I could find online two years after the fact), but after the CNN Town Hall there were fortunately numerous fact-checking articles noting what he said that was wrong while providing correct information.
And returning to your original claim, Biden's comments were based upon his own misunderstandings, not the advice of medical experts who well understand that vaccines do not prevent infection.
You have already said that unvaccinated people are at greater risk of illness and death from disease.
Correct.
If someone thinks they have the best interests of their fellows at heart, they don't do it by forcing people to do something against their will.
And the flip side of this is that if someone has the best interests of their fellows at heart, they don't risk exposing them to potentially deadly diseases.
They make their case and let people decide for themselves. You want to do it by making laws based on poor preparation and a false sense of security.
What I actually did was to rhetorically ask whose right was greater, saying that I don't have an answer for you.
How we deal with threats to public health should always take into account the severity. If contracting the disease and dying has a rate of .001% then we probably don't adjust public health policy. If that rate were instead 1% (covid was around .3% in the US) then some adjustments to public health policy would be necessary that would depend upon the nature of the threat. And if that rate were 10% then there would need to be significant changes to public health policy, including a number of things that would intrude upon personal freedoms.
People respond differently to different threat levels. When they believe there's little to no chance of severe illness or death then they'll tend to ignore public health cautions and advice. But when people they know and people they love begin to fall ill and even die such that it's impossible to deny or ignore the threat then the general tendency is to modify behavior to minimize risk.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 863 by Kleinman, posted 04-18-2023 8:01 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


(1)
Message 866 of 1110 (910158)
04-18-2023 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 864 by Percy
04-18-2023 9:20 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Do you think that the general public understands what kind of mask to use and how to wear it?
Percy:
Judging by what I saw out in public during the mask-wearing phase, a significant proportion of people don't understand that gaps compromise mask effectiveness. The worst gaps occur when people wear the mask below the nose. I don't think the general public realizes how ineffective cloth masks are, or that surgical masks have a sort of running gap all around the edge.

I also don't know how much the general public is aware of the debate about the relative effectiveness of surgical versus N95 masks, but laboratory measurements indicate that N95's are far better at capturing small droplets than surgical masks, and they have a much better fit with far fewer gaps.​

Do you understand that a general mask mandate for the prevention of the spread of an infectious disease requires a lot of preparation of the population, (education, training,...etc.)? And what do you do with children that are too young to understand that training? Do you think that writing a law solves the problem? Yours and the "good intentions" of others that think like you have harmed a lot of people with your shallow thinking.
Kleinman:
Do you think that an ineffective, improperly worn mask will be effective in preventing the spread of Covid or any other infectious disease?
Percy:
It's a continuum. The better the mask and the more properly and consistently it is worn, particular when other people are present, the more effective it will be at reducing the spread of respiratory disease.

I'm not arguing whether a properly worn, effective mask will reduce the risk of transmission of an infectious disease. Why do you continue to argue this way? The question is whether a generalized mask mandate will reduce the spread of Covid (or for that matter any other infectious disease). Where is your evidence that any generalized mask mandate reduced the spread of Covid?
Kleinman:
Fauci has little or no clinical experience...
Percy:
According to Wikipedia, that isn't an accurate statement:
Wikipedia on Anthony Fauci:
After completing his medical residency in 1968, Fauci joined the National Institutes of Health (NIH) as a clinical associate in the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases's (NIAID) Laboratory of Clinical Investigation (LCI). He became head of the LCI's Clinical Physiology Section in 1974, and in 1980 was appointed chief of the NIAID's Laboratory of Immunoregulation. He became director of the NIAID in 1984. Fauci has been offered the position of director of the NIH several times, but has declined each time.


Do you think that looking at a spreadsheet is the same as seeing and caring for patients?
Kleinman:
...and has little understanding of the general population and how they respond to the medical system and the medical advice we (physicians) give to people.
Percy:
The "general population" is a large and diverse group, significant proportions of which seem to behave in ways counter to their own best interests. There is a multiplicity of ways that members of this group respond to the medical community and medical advice. I would imagine that most physicians despair of ever developing a good feel for how they will behave.

Do you think you know enough to force people to behave in ways in their own best interests? Try doing 150,000 documented patient encounters (encounters I got paid for) and see if you get some idea of how patients behave and respond.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 864 by Percy, posted 04-18-2023 9:20 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 867 by xongsmith, posted 04-18-2023 12:53 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 885 by Percy, posted 04-19-2023 7:57 AM Kleinman has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 867 of 1110 (910163)
04-18-2023 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 866 by Kleinman
04-18-2023 10:20 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Why didn't you just begin by saying that the public is too stupid to behave properly?
I think a lot of the animosity you created would have been avoided.
It's one thing to claim that the vaccinations are not effective and that masking
is not effective, but both work as instructed if the stupids just follow instructions.
Oh well, it's another day in the neighborhood,

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 866 by Kleinman, posted 04-18-2023 10:20 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 868 by Kleinman, posted 04-18-2023 1:08 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 868 of 1110 (910164)
04-18-2023 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 867 by xongsmith
04-18-2023 12:53 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
xongsmith:
Why didn't you just begin by saying that the public is too stupid to behave properly?
I think a lot of the animosity you created would have been avoided.

It's one thing to claim that the vaccinations are not effective and that masking
is not effective, but both work as instructed if the stupids just follow instructions.

Oh well, it's another day in the neighborhood,
xongsmith will now give us instructions on correctly using vaccinations and masks. After that, he will instruct us on how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail and explain why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony and Lenski experiments. If he can't do that, perhaps Richard Dawkins will explain it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 867 by xongsmith, posted 04-18-2023 12:53 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 869 by AZPaul3, posted 04-18-2023 1:50 PM Kleinman has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 869 of 1110 (910165)
04-18-2023 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 868 by Kleinman
04-18-2023 1:08 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
xongsmith will now give us instructions on correctly using vaccinations and masks. After that, he will instruct us on how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail and explain why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
Why should he? You can't.
xongsmith is not a biologist or a medical doctor. You are (so you say).
But you can't explain any of these things, either.
Biologists and medical doctors, if in their speciality, know the answers to these things. It's their job. Those others in the discipline may not know off the tops of their heads but they can find the information soon enough. There are plenty of places out there to study.
But you, Kleinman, can't explain these things.
You tried. You even self-published some lone papers on a vanity site trying to explain but all the rest of the knowledgeable scientists flushed them down the academic crapper. You were so wrong you didn't even rate a response from ... anyone.
So, you have not explained any of these things. So, stop trying to insult others who cannot recite the gospel when you don't know it either.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 868 by Kleinman, posted 04-18-2023 1:08 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 870 by Kleinman, posted 04-18-2023 2:28 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 870 of 1110 (910166)
04-18-2023 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 869 by AZPaul3
04-18-2023 1:50 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
xongsmith will now give us instructions on correctly using vaccinations and masks. After that, he will instruct us on how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail and explain why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
AZPaul3:
Why should he? You can't.

xongsmith is not a biologist or a medical doctor. You are (so you say).

But you can't explain any of these things, either.

I like explaining these things to you AZPaul3, you are so well prepared to understand them. Here it is.
For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
And for multiple simultaneous selection pressures:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
With a little training, even you could learn it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 869 by AZPaul3, posted 04-18-2023 1:50 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 871 by AZPaul3, posted 04-18-2023 2:53 PM Kleinman has replied

  
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