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Author Topic:   COVID vaccine works - we're saved!
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 983 of 1110 (910399)
04-22-2023 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 981 by xongsmith
04-22-2023 10:49 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
For starters, do you think that people that proposed general mask mandates considered whether the public would wear appropriate masks in an effective manner? And providing an exemption for young children from wearing masks would nullify the effect of a general mask mandate?
xongsmith:
Nullify? BULLSHIT. Many people did do it right and it made a difference. Sure, there were idiots who refused to comply, most notably led by the Asshole POTUS at the time who made a show of ripping his mask off on national TV. But there was a measurable positive impact, just as there is for vaccinations despite the evolutionary variants now beyond Omicron.

It's an ongoing battle that needs encouragement, NOT detractors. Remember, this is about EDUCATION.
People don't like being told they have to go back to school, but they do have to go.

Now, on to a point about your quoting Maggie Thatcher's infamous asshole view when you refer to Percy with

Poor xongsmith, I've discouraged him.
Kleinman:
Your display of generosity with other people's money is heartwarming.
xongsmith:
IT IS NOT OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY!
IT IS OUR MONEY! ALL OF US TOGETHER.

A civilization is a collection of people, all together, who make the collection civilized.

Currently all civilized countries provide healthcare for all of their citizens.

Since the United States does not do this, then, by definition, they are NOT yet civilized.

I wasn't quoting Margaret Thatcher, but thanks for pointing out the similarity. She said the following.
Quote by Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventual...”
The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.
Of course, xongsmith will now share his bank account number and pin number with all of us. And since xongsmith is so civilized, he has offered to pay for all of our medical bills.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 981 by xongsmith, posted 04-22-2023 10:49 AM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 987 by Theodoric, posted 04-22-2023 12:01 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 984 of 1110 (910400)
04-22-2023 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 982 by xongsmith
04-22-2023 10:56 AM


Re: The Right to Spread the GOD thing
Kleinman:
You can even do it like one of the thieves on his cross next to Jesus, but why wait?
xongsmith:
Wait? For a fictional character like some Tinkerbell to sprinkle some kind of magical dust over me?
I have better things to do.

xongsmith will now present the evidence he has that Jesus was a fictional character.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 982 by xongsmith, posted 04-22-2023 10:56 AM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 985 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-22-2023 11:38 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 988 of 1110 (910405)
04-22-2023 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 985 by Tanypteryx
04-22-2023 11:38 AM


Re: The Right to Spread the GOD thing
Tanypteryx:
Kleinman will now present evidence of the supernatural.
Certainly, Tany, let's start with the creation of life. Of course, with your vast knowledge of the laws of physics, you will explain to us how it can happen by natural forces. You have done so well with your explanation of biological evolution including descent with modification and adaptation. Would you give us again your explanation for why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony and Lenski experiments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 985 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-22-2023 11:38 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 989 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-22-2023 12:07 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 990 of 1110 (910407)
04-22-2023 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 986 by Theodoric
04-22-2023 11:55 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Theodoric:
Again you are lying. Please do not make personal attacks against my wife. What she tells her patients and what she knows is irrelevant to this conversation. If you lie about her or cast aspersions to her ability and character again, I will be making a formal complaint with the admin.
Just because you can't tell us what your wife tells her patients when she starts antibiotics you think it is a personal attack?
Complain however you want, formal or otherwise, you don't have much else to offer in this discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 986 by Theodoric, posted 04-22-2023 11:55 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 991 of 1110 (910408)
04-22-2023 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 987 by Theodoric
04-22-2023 12:01 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Theodoric:
Lies
The complaint window is the next window over.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 987 by Theodoric, posted 04-22-2023 12:01 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 992 of 1110 (910409)
04-22-2023 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 989 by Tanypteryx
04-22-2023 12:07 PM


Re: The Right to Spread the GOD thing
Tanypteryx:
I guess you don't understand the word "supernatural." Hint, it's not physics.
Tany will now give us the physics of the creation of life. But first, he will explain how drug resistance evolves, why cancer treatments fail, how the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments work, and why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 989 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-22-2023 12:07 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 993 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-22-2023 12:21 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 994 of 1110 (910412)
04-22-2023 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 993 by Tanypteryx
04-22-2023 12:21 PM


Re: The Right to Spread the GOD thing
Kleinman:
Tany will now give us the physics of the creation of life. But first, he will explain how drug resistance evolves, why cancer treatments fail, how the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments work, and why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments.
Tanypteryx:
Thanks, you have posted everything that is known about the supernatural.

Next the Conman will explain how Gypsies created the fossil record from tea leaves.

Thank you, Tany for enlightening us all on the physics of the creation of life. Your explanation of the evolution of drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail will be most helpful to physicians. And your explanation of the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments and why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutational step shows us how much you understand biological science. We look forward to your continued good work in the biological and physical sciences, and mathematics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 993 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-22-2023 12:21 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 995 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-22-2023 2:16 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 998 of 1110 (910417)
04-22-2023 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 995 by Tanypteryx
04-22-2023 2:16 PM


Re: The Right to Spread the GOD thing
Tanyptertx:
The Conman will show us precisely how jesus controls each bacterial replication. Thoughts and prayers, thoughts and prayers.
I can explain how descent with modification and adaptation works which you can't and why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony and Lenski experiments. It is simple mathematics, something which biologists don't understand. Now why doesn't Tany explain the physics of how life started? You can't because this transcends the laws of physics. In other words, it was a supernatural occurrence which nobody can explain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 995 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-22-2023 2:16 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 999 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-22-2023 3:02 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 1002 by xongsmith, posted 04-22-2023 4:34 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1000 of 1110 (910424)
04-22-2023 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 997 by Percy
04-22-2023 2:47 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
You seem to have gotten a very tiny bit out of the Bible. You missed the part where Jesus said, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her".
Percy:
So you think society should be guided by a book with obvious contradictions.

Go for it, show the contradictions in the Bible.
Kleinman:
And you still don't understand why STDs are so widespread in the world.
Percy:
You still don't understand that if you want to discuss STDs you should open a new thread.

You still don't understand, STDs are infectious diseases transmitted by the behavior of people. Do you think Covid can be transmitted by promiscuous behavior, even if they wear masks?
Kleinman:
If you want to take advice from a witch, that is your choice. Why don't you tell us what good ideas or explanations you have gotten from witches?
Percy:
So you believe in witches, do you?

There are people that proclaim themselves witches, you should debate this point with them.
Kleinman:
It is called preparation.
Percy:
So you're not yet prepared for this discussion.
Kleinman:
Perhaps not.
Percy:
Maybe you should come back when you're prepared.



Why? It has never stopped you.
Kleinman:
That's the point, Percy. The line that you pull from these papers is not a conclusion, otherwise, they would post the data to support that conclusion. Why the authors would put in such a line is open for debate.
Percy:
If by data you mean raw data, raw data doesn't usually appear in such papers. Depending upon the paper, typical sections are methodology, results, analysis and conclusions. If you didn't see any results or analysis then you must have been looking with your eyes closed.

You like to post graphs. Where is your graph that shows that show that a general mask mandate reduced the spread of Covid compared with regions that didn't have a mask mandate.
Kleinman:
It is an example of good intentions being insufficient in writing a law. It doesn't remove the stigma from someone with HIV and it doesn't prevent an unknowing person from being injured.
Percy:
And what caused you to think this was relevant to the discussion at the time?

Do you think a general mask mandate was done with good intentions, if so, show the data that describes the outcome.
Percy:
Why do you think masks and vaccinations do not reduce the spread and severity of respiratory pandemics?
Kleinman:
We can go around on this as much as you want.
Percy:
Then answer the question instead of just asking more questions and changing the subject to polio. Why do you think masks and vaccinations do not reduce the spread and severity of respiratory pandemics?


Where have I said that vaccinations do not reduce the severity of respiratory infections? I brought up the Sabin vaccine because it was a live attenuated virus vaccine that actually was intended to spread the attenuated virus to a all members of a household. It is a vaccine intended to spread the attenuated virus. The problem is that it mutates and becomes a disease causing virus. A vaccinated person can catch the disease and the virus can spread despite being vaccinated. Your problem is that you think a mask mandate and a vaccination solves the problem. In some cases, you can actually make it worse.
Kleinman:
Point to the first time you wrote about this obvious point. You don't have to limit yourself to this thread.
Percy:
Like I said, I think you're having trouble following or recalling the discussion.

I get it, you can't point to a message that shows you understand that people with weakened immune systems and comorbidities (heart disease, cancer, diabetes, asthma,...) are at much greater risk from diseases that might be considered mild.
Kleinman:
Even the people of New York found Cuomo's decision-making capability lacking.
Percy:
Why did you say Cuomo was confining elderly people when he wasn't, making it impossible for anyone to know what you were talking about? And why now do you see the need to argue a point no one is contesting?

Cuomo was sending people from the hospital to convalesent homes where elderly people were residing. This resulted in the deaths of thousands of people. He then tried to hide the data (as you noted) resulting in Cuomo being removed from office.
Kleinman:
I notice you didn't tell us whether you think that people have a right to self-defense.
Percy:
Do you think a covid thread is a good place to begin a discussion about the right to self-defense?

You are the one saying health care is a right. What other rights do you think we have?
Kleinman:
People do have a right to free medical care paid for by society according to you.
Percy:
You do have a problem keeping your facts straight.

Now, what are you trying to force people to do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 997 by Percy, posted 04-22-2023 2:47 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1004 by Percy, posted 04-22-2023 5:35 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1001 of 1110 (910425)
04-22-2023 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 999 by Tanypteryx
04-22-2023 3:02 PM


Re: The Right to Spread the GOD thing
Kleinman:
In other words, it was a supernatural occurrence which nobody can explain.
Tanypteryx:
Sure you can, god of the gaps and all that.

There are some gaps in your education, such as biological and physical sciences, and mathematics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 999 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-22-2023 3:02 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1003 of 1110 (910431)
04-22-2023 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1002 by xongsmith
04-22-2023 4:34 PM


Re: The Right to Spread the GOD thing
xongsmith:
I can explain how dissent with a billion replications of the same inane posts produces a monstrous pile of shit with simple mathematics, something which the SHITFUCKER doesn't understand. Now why doesn't the SHITFUCKER just get the fuck out of here? He can't because this transcends the boundaries of his mind. In other words, it was a subliminally evil occurrence the arrival of which which nobody ever wants to see again.
We can conclude that xongsmith has difficulty with the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments and the mathematics that describes them. Perhaps a remedial course in mathematics could help him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1002 by xongsmith, posted 04-22-2023 4:34 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1006 of 1110 (910439)
04-22-2023 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1004 by Percy
04-22-2023 5:35 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Go for it, show the contradictions in the Bible.
Percy:
My, my, you *do* have a problem staying on topic. I just wanted to know if you really want society's goals (health related ones in this thread, of course) guided by a book full of contradictions after you described one of them yourself, about death and/or stoning to death (Deuteronony/Leviticus) or not stoning (Jesus in John).

Do you want society's goals to be guided only by the Bible, or are the books of other religions allowed, too?

Why shouldn't a multireligious society set health goals that are free of religious influences?

Don't you know that God made a new covenant? Read Jeremiah 31:31-34. There were many reasons why the woman with Jesus wasn't stoned. Not the least of the reasons was that all the men (from the oldest to the youngest) had their own sins to be dealt with. They did not hold a trial, they did not bring the man caught in adultery forward to be stoned. They were not dealing justly according to Leviticus or Deuteronomy.
Do you mean influences that you don't agree with?
Kleinman:
You still don't understand, STDs are infectious diseases transmitted by the behavior of people. Do you think Covid can be transmitted by promiscuous behavior, even if they wear masks?
Percy:
Do you get things wrong on purpose, or is your comprehension really this bad?

So, do you think that Covid can only be transmitted by inhaled droplets?
Kleinman:
There are people that proclaim themselves witches, you should debate this point with them.
Percy:
And some people think they're Napoleon. Do you argue with them, too?

You will have to ask the people that proclaim themselves witches.
Kleinman:
Why? It has never stopped you.
Percy:
Yes, I can see you're in your element now. Unable to discuss intelligently, your goal is to cause chaos and bring discussion down to the mudslinging level so that onlookers can't tell who is the idiot. We can't stop you from going on this way. Only you can.

Who is doing the mudslinging? All I'm doing is pointing out the facts. Why does that cause chaos?
Kleinman:
You like to post graphs. Where is your graph that shows that show that a general mask mandate reduced the spread of Covid compared with regions that didn't have a mask mandate.
Percy:
Where is your graph that shows that they don't?

Apparently, epidemiologists don't have any data to graph on whether masks help or not to prevent the spread of Covid.
Kleinman:
Do you think a general mask mandate was done with good intentions, if so, show the data that describes the outcome.
Percy:
You *do* like repeating yourself.

You could post a graph that shows that a general mask mandate reduced the spread of Covid compared to a region without a mask mandate and stop this repetition right now.
Kleinman:
Where have I said that vaccinations do not reduce the severity of respiratory infections?
Percy:
So you *do* believe that vaccinations reduce the severity of respiratory infections? Do you also believe they can reduce the likelihood that someone will become ill with an infection? Do you understand that making illness less likely reduces spread? And that reducing spread reduces illness and death? And that therefore unvaccinated people in public spaces increase illness and death?

I've said this before and I'll post the message number if you want. What I have also said is that people that don't want to get vaccinated put themselves at greater risk but that is their free choice and they should not be sanctioned for their choice. It is you that want to force people to get vaccinations.
Kleinman:
I get it, you can't point to a message that shows you understand that people with weakened immune systems and comorbidities (heart disease, cancer, diabetes, asthma,...) are at much greater risk from diseases that might be considered mild.
Percy:
I suggest you search the thread and see which of us was first to use the term "comorbidities". Maybe it will refresh your memory.

I started posting on this thread on Message 612 in response to your Message 611. I've been pointing out this issue of comorbidities with Covid, influenza, and many other "milder" viral infections since the beginning of the Covid episode. I'm glad you finally figured it out in this thread, it is about time.
Kleinman:
Cuomo was sending people from the hospital to convalesent homes where elderly people were residing.
Percy:
Not surprising that you've got this backwards. Cuomo wasn't sending people to nursing homes. He was preventing nursing homes from denying admission to covid infected people.

So, Cuomo was forcing nursing homes to take Covid patients even thought the operators knew the risk. That's the kind of leadership you like. Send people to nursing homes that are filled with people that have comorbidities and surprise, surprise, you get thousands of deaths. Of course, with your knowledge of comorbidities, you could see what Cuomo did would have a bad outcome.
Kleinman:
You are the one saying health care is a right.
Percy:
I think your mind is playing tricks on you, or perhaps it's jumping to conclusions. Is your mind usually this unreliable?

Can't you make up your mind, is health care a right or is it not a right?
Kleinman:
Now, what are you trying to force people to do.
Percy:
Only you know, so you'll just have to tell us what your little imagination has cooked up out of thin air.

Don't worry, it will be substantiated with experimental and empirical evidence and will be mathematically logical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1004 by Percy, posted 04-22-2023 5:35 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1007 by Percy, posted 04-23-2023 8:57 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1008 of 1110 (910453)
04-23-2023 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1007 by Percy
04-23-2023 8:57 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Don't you know that God made a new covenant? Read Jeremiah 31:31-34. There were many reasons why the woman with Jesus wasn't stoned. Not the least of the reasons was that all the men (from the oldest to the youngest) had their own sins to be dealt with. They did not hold a trial, they did not bring the man caught in adultery forward to be stoned. They were not dealing justly according to Leviticus or Deuteronomy.
Percy:
Awww, you believe all this stuff. That's so adorable.

You might not find it so adorable when God judges you. Awww, you don't believe all this stuff.
Percy:
Why shouldn't a multireligious society set health goals that are free of religious influences?
Kleinman:
Do you mean influences that you don't agree with?
Percy:
No. Why would you think that? Is your mind playing tricks on you again? Why do you think religion should influence public health policy? And would that be only Christian religion or all religions?


I think everyone has the right to influence health policy, it is called the right to free speech. It appears you have a problem with free speech when you say, "Why shouldn't a multireligious society set health goals that are free of religious influences?".
Kleinman:
So, do you think that Covid can only be transmitted by inhaled droplets?
Percy:
You still seem to be having a problem with recall. See Message 838, a reply to you.

You also continually repeat the mistake of thinking that the first time someone mentions something is the first time they've become aware of it. But people don't do complete brain dumps in every message. What they know comes out gradually during discussion as it wanders among subtopics.​

Feel free to post a quote from any of your links that say that Covid can only be transmitted by inhaled droplets and that the virus cannot be transmitted during sexual contact other than by inhaling droplets. You won't. You are confused and wrong.
Kleinman:
You will have to ask the people that proclaim themselves witches.
Percy:
I think debating self-proclaimed witches is *your* thing. I'm glad you're letting them live, though.

You have a very short memory, it was you that brought up the topic of witches. You are really having trouble making a coherent argument.
Kleinman:
Who is doing the mudslinging? All I'm doing is pointing out the facts. Why does that cause chaos?
Percy:
Yep, nothing going on here, folks, if he does say so himself. Sugar wouldn't melt in his mouth.

Now Percy brings up "sugar". You are still having difficulty putting together a coherent arguement.
Kleinman:
Apparently, epidemiologists don't have any data to graph on whether masks help or not to prevent the spread of Covid.
Percy:
And yet if you do a Google image search, there they are.

Oh boy, Percy is about to post data that shows a mask mandate has a significant effect on the spread of Covid.
Kleinman:
You could post a graph that shows that a general mask mandate reduced the spread of Covid compared to a region without a mask mandate and stop this repetition right now.
Percy:
Try this one:


Let's consider some of the numbers. The colored lines show new cases per 100,000 people. The y-axis is the number of new cases per day, and the x-axis it the time period. The mandate is implemented in July. At that time, in counties that did not require masks, less than 5 people per 100,000 per day were getting Covid, while in counties where people that were wearing masks, over 10 people per 100,000 per day were getting Covid. Masks don't seem to be helping at all in July and in fact, more people are being infected per 100,000 while wearing masks than those not wearing masks. Somewhere around September, the incidence lines cross when the rate of infection is about 15 people per 100,000 per day. At that point, the mask mandate line stays fairly constant at 15-20 infections per 100,000 per day while the unmasked population starts to rise from 15 to an apparent maximum of about 40 new infections per 100,000 per day. 15 new infections per 100,000 per day*30 days = 450 new infections per 100,000 people for the masked population in September. (15+40)/2 new infections per 100,000 per day*30 day = 825 new infections per 100,000 people for the unmasked population in the same time interval, September. Why did the source authors stop their plot at October? And is the reduction of incidence of infection from less than 0.82% to about 0.45% a significant change?
Percy, I don't think you understand the severity of the problem with data collection concerning Covid. Do you understand what a death certificate is? Do you have any familiarity with these documents? As part of my medical training, I learned how to fill out a death certificate and during my training, I was assigned to fill out these documents for several patients. It isn't a complex document. It has places to fill out to identify the patient, places to fill out for dates, and some other details. Two places to fill out are the cause of death and the second place for related factors. For example, the cause of death might be pulmonary edema (fluid in the lungs), but the related factors could be heart failure, infection, cancer, or any of a number of other factors that could cause fluid to accumulate in the lungs. The way the physician puts down the cause of death can have a significant effect on the way data is collected. The question is, did anything like this happen with the collection of data for Covid? If you are interested in whether this happened or not, watch the following video made by a physician who also happened to be a state senator from Minnesota and was involved in collecting the data on Covid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHxj_Luclxs&ab_channel=Jo...
Kleinman:
I've said this before and I'll post the message number if you want. What I have also said is that people that don't want to get vaccinated put themselves at greater risk but that is their free choice and they should not be sanctioned for their choice. It is you that want to force people to get vaccinations.
Percy:
Balancing personal freedom against public safety is a tough call. I have no easy answers for you. Does that sound familiar? It should, because this must be the third or fourth time I've said it. But you don't care about what people actually say. You just make it up

You are wrong Percy, I do care about what people say. I ended up in a profession that is strongly influenced by what people say. What do you think the medical history is all about? People are telling me their story and I take that story and physical examination (lab tests, etc.) and come to some kind of medical diagnosis. Your mistake is that you think you have the corner on the truth. I listen to your arguments and I am left with the impression that you are a superficial thinker.
Kleinman:
I started posting on this thread on Message 612 in response to your Message 611. I've been pointing out this issue of comorbidities with Covid, influenza, and many other "milder" viral infections since the beginning of the Covid episode. I'm glad you finally figured it out in this thread, it is about time.
Percy:
You didn't do the search I suggested, did you. If you do that search you'll see that the first to mention comorbidities was not you.

And why do you think people are unaware of comorbidity? It's one of the simpler things about disease to understand. All it means is that someone is dealing with at least one other medical issue. Why do you think this is a difficult concept? I guess your obvious insecurities drive you to say things that make you feel smarter.

Now you know what searches I've done or haven't done. Do you want me to post Message 574? You don't understand the difficulty of assigning a cause of death when a person has comorbidities? You don't understand that assigning a cause of death can have a huge impact on the profitability of a drug company. Hopefully, you watched the video I linked to earlier in this message so that you can get a clue on this.
Kleinman:
So, Cuomo was forcing nursing homes to take Covid patients even thought the operators knew the risk.
Percy:
Hey, you've finally got it right. Congratulations. Only took you three tries.

Whatever
Kleinman:
That's the kind of leadership you like. Send people to nursing homes that are filled with people that have comorbidities and surprise, surprise, you get thousands of deaths. Of course, with your knowledge of comorbidities, you could see what Cuomo did would have a bad outcome.
Percy:
There you go, making things up in your own mind again.

But it *is* a difficult question. When hospitals have no more room for covid patients, where should the overflow go in the case of the elderly?

Have you forgot what Trump tried to do for New York?
https://www.nbcnews.com/...-sees-navy-hospital-ship-n1171256
President Donald Trump visited Norfolk, Va. on Saturday to see off the USNS Comfort, a Navy hospital ship that is headed to New York to provide extra space and support to medical workers in the fight against the coronavirus outbreak.
Kleinman:
Can't you make up your mind, is health care a right or is it not a right?
Percy:
Why do you even have to ask? What makes you think anyone out there believes health care is a right in this country.

Did you mean to ask whether I believe health care should be a right? I can only repeat what I've said before. I think society's goals should include maintaining as healthy a population as reasonably possible. I haven't said anything about the means of achieving this.

That's really helpful. You think society's goals should include maintaining as healthy a population as reasonably possible. If you aren't going to thank God for that, you should thank a farmer for that.
Kleinman:
Now, what are you trying to force people to do.
Percy:
Only you know, so you'll just have to tell us what your little imagination has cooked up out of thin air.
Kleinman:
Don't worry, it will be substantiated with experimental and empirical evidence and will be mathematically logical.
Percy:
Not only do you falsely think I'm trying to force people to do something, you think you can substantiate this claim with "experimental and empirical evidence [that] will be mathematically logical" when you don't even know who I am. That doesn't make any sense at all. You are truly confused and delusional.



You don't even understand what persuasion is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1007 by Percy, posted 04-23-2023 8:57 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1009 by Percy, posted 04-23-2023 1:57 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 1010 by xongsmith, posted 04-23-2023 2:34 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1011 of 1110 (910457)
04-23-2023 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1009 by Percy
04-23-2023 1:57 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
You might not find it so adorable when God judges you. Awww, you don't believe all this stuff.
Percy:
Watch out for the boogieman, too.

You can watch out for whatever you want.
Kleinman:
I think everyone has the right to influence health policy, it is called the right to free speech. It appears you have a problem with free speech when you say, "Why shouldn't a multireligious society set health goals that are free of religious influences?".
Percy:
Still making stuff up, I see. So tell us which religions should be informing society's health policies, and what should they be telling them?

Anyone can say whatever they want, even someone so ill-prepared as you.
Kleinman:
Feel free to post a quote from any of your links that say that Covid can only be transmitted by inhaled droplets and that the virus cannot be transmitted during sexual contact other than by inhaling droplets. You won't. You are confused and wrong.
Percy:
Is English your second language?

Percy has numerous ways of saying that he doesn't have the quote to post.
Kleinman:
You have a very short memory, it was you that brought up the topic of witches. You are really having trouble making a coherent argument.
Percy:
Actually you prompted the mention of witches by citing the Bible as a source of health policy. So how are you and those witches getting along?

It doesn't take much prompting to get Percy to talk. Does Percy want a cracker?
Kleinman:
Now Percy brings up "sugar". You are still having difficulty putting together a coherent argument.
Percy:
Yeah, right. You can't even recognize a figure of speech.

I do recognize when someone has little to say.
Percy:
In response to the graph on masks you say:
Kleinman:
Let's consider some of the numbers...etc...
Percy:
You said there were no graphs on masks, so I showed you a graph on masks. Wrong again, huh Kleinman? You then ramble on for two long nonsensical paragraphs casting random aspersions at a study you haven't even seen and then finish up with...wait for it...A YOUTUBE VIDEO! Good show!


Now we know what you think is a significant effect of a mask mandate. And you have less of an understanding of comorbidities.
Kleinman:
You are wrong Percy, I do care about what people say.
Percy:
Of course you do. That's why you ignore what people actually say and respond as if they said something else. Unable to counter the actual arguments you make up nonsensical ones that are manageable for you, and then you (no Kleinman post would be complete without this) declare how wonderful you are and how little everyone else understands.

When have you made an argument? All you do is post a graph that show that a mask mandate had no significant effect on the spread of Covid and claim that people that have a different viewpoint than you should not have input on societal healthcare.
Kleinman:
I ended up in a profession that is strongly influenced by what people say.
Percy:
I can only comment on what I see, and what I see here is you ignoring and denigrating people. I expect that carries over to all aspects of your life, including your professional life where it isn't your opinion of yourself that counts but your patients.

Poor Percy, he feels ignored and denigrated. Somebody give him his pacifier.
Kleinman:
Now you know what searches I've done or haven't done. Do you want me to post Message 574?
Percy:
Hey, you did a search! Congratulations! Next time maybe do the search before making stupid comments instead of after.

Now, if you only understood the effects of comorbidities on Covid, influenza, and other infectious diseases. Then you might understand why the collection and analysis of Covid data are not showing what you want. Perhaps I'm asking too much from someone that doesn't have the faintest idea of the practice of medicine.
Kleinman:
You don't understand the difficulty of assigning a cause of death when a person has comorbidities? You don't understand that assigning a cause of death can have a huge impact on the profitability of a drug company.
Percy:
You're repeating yourself. Again. As you already know, excess deaths were pretty close to covid deaths, so there's little substance to the claim that covid deaths were misclassified.

Next, Percy is going to tell us that Pfizer and Moderna didn't make a fortune off of Covid vaccine. Percy, you have no idea how pharmaceutical companies work. You are so naive.
Kleinman:
Hopefully, you watched the video I linked to earlier in this message so that you can get a clue on this.
Percy:
As the Forum Guidelines make clear, present the information and make the argument in your own words, and your YouTube video can serve as a supporting reference.

Did you watch the video of a physician/legislator who reports that Covid data was being overemphasized by how it was being reported on death certificates? It couldn't be because Pfizer and Moderna made billions of dollars off of their vaccines. You are so naive.
Percy:
But it *is* a difficult question. When hospitals have no more room for covid patients, where should the overflow go in the case of the elderly?
Kleinman:
Have you forgot what Trump tried to do for New York?
https://www.nbcnews.com/...-sees-navy-hospital-ship-n1171256
President Donald Trump visited Norfolk, Va. on Saturday to see off the USNS Comfort, a Navy hospital ship that is headed to New York to provide extra space and support to medical workers in the fight against the coronavirus outbreak.
Percy:
So your argument is that because Trump sent a hospital ship to help out during a pandemic that that created a right to health care?

By the way, the intent was not for the hospital ship to provide covid care but to provide care for people with other ailments, thereby relieving pressure on New York City's hospital system. Unfortunately the hospital ship was barely used due to "a tangle of military protocols and bureaucratic hurdles..." (USNS Comfort Hospital Ship Was Supposed to Aid New York. It Has 3 Patients. - The New York Times)


I realize this is difficult for you to understand but this is a contrast between what Trump wanted to do and what Cumomo did. All you have shown is the bureaucracy was never very helpful to Trump or to the people of New York. The people of New York are now showing their gratitude to Trump. It just makes you want to visit that place filled with grateful people.
Kleinman:
That's really helpful. You think society's goals should include maintaining as healthy a population as reasonably possible. If you aren't going to thank God for that, you should thank a farmer for that.
Percy:
This didn't make sense.

I realize it is hard for you to see the obvious, but a well-fed population is healthier than a starving population.
Kleinman:
You don't even understand what persuasion is.
Percy:
I don't think you should be claiming any competence in persuasion. You seem driven to draw as much scorn as possible. Even someone making rational arguments couldn't persuade anyone using your approach.

Some people can't be persuaded by physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence. Fear has taken over their thinking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1009 by Percy, posted 04-23-2023 1:57 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1013 by AZPaul3, posted 04-23-2023 4:35 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 1017 by Percy, posted 04-23-2023 8:28 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 1012 of 1110 (910458)
04-23-2023 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1010 by xongsmith
04-23-2023 2:34 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
a cause of death can have a huge impact on the profitability of a drug company
xongsmith:
But the profitability of any drug company should be irrelevant in a civilized country, like one that provides health care for everyone of its citizens.

the USA is not a civilized country yet.

xongsmith will now explain to us how money doesn't influence anyone's decisions. And to prove how civilized he is, xongsmith will pay all our healthcare bills.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1010 by xongsmith, posted 04-23-2023 2:34 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
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