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Author Topic:   Evolution falsifies God/s?
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 887 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 211 of 253 (728341)
05-27-2014 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by RAZD
05-26-2014 8:15 AM


Re: beating a dead horse once more around the bushes
Hey RAZD
Your overall challenge to faceman is good, I just wanted to point out a couple things ...
Would you AGREE or DISAGREE that a duplication mutation would be neutral?
There really isn't a YES or NO answer to this question. Duplications can have wide ranging effects from completely neutral to a speciation event. For example polyploidy could be considered whole genome duplication and can often lead to speciation. Duplication of a non-coding sequence would be neutral. Duplications of other types of sequences would vary greatly in their effects.
Perhaps, "... a duplication mutation COULD be neutral?" would be easier to answer.
Would you AGREE or DISAGREE that natural selection would tend to remove them if they are actually deleterious?
One of the problems in discussions like these is the YEC like to use the human genome as an example of "genetic load," "genetic deterioration," "genetic meltdown" or whatever the term of the day is. Humans are the worst example to use to discuss this because we have found so many way to get around deleterious mutations. For example, if I had been born 300 years ago, I would probably not lived to reproductive age. My eyesight is so bad i would certainly fell off a cliff or been the first to die in a battle, etc. But today because of corrective lenses, I have been able to pass on my genes just fine - although my daughter has eyesight almost as poor as mine.
SO if we are talking about humans ... I DISAGREE that natural selection would tend to remove them, but for all other species, I would AGREE (the key words though being "tend to remove")
However, it doesn't appear faceman wanted to answer your questions, so my pointing this out was probably pointless, as I doubt you actually needed to be corrected on these points.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by RAZD, posted 05-26-2014 8:15 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by RAZD, posted 05-27-2014 11:20 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 887 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 212 of 253 (728342)
05-27-2014 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by faceman
05-27-2014 1:21 AM


Re: once more around the bushes
Hi faceman.
Here it is in action:
The Achilles' heel of biological complexity
Curious, what do you see as the "take home message" from this article you referenced?
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by faceman, posted 05-27-2014 1:21 AM faceman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by faceman, posted 05-31-2014 1:51 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 887 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(3)
Message 214 of 253 (728350)
05-27-2014 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by faceman
05-27-2014 2:20 AM


Re: Why would a YEC argue against YEC?
Why not use bacteria as your example. I think they burn through a generation every 30 min or so, don't they? It's an apples to oranges comparison though. The far more simpler genome of the fruit fly (or of bacteria) means less can go wrong plus they have an enormous population size anyways (unlike us).
Not really. Because of their rapid generation times, bacteria and to a lesser extent, fruit flies are under significant constraints to keep their genome small and compact. This provides for efficient, rapid duplication and conserves resources. If you look at a bacterial gene map, you would see that there is very little untranslated regions. The following table is a very generalized overview:
E. coli Fruit Fly Human
# genes 4,500 15,700 20,000
# base pairs 4.6 M 139.5 M 3,235 M
# chromosomes 1 4 23
Gene density is not a straight forward calculation, however. For E. coli, the average distance between genes is about 120 base pairs. Humans can have 10s of thousands of base pairs between genes. Also, about 25% of the human genome is introns, which are spliced out and recycled (some introns do have functions so ~20% are discarded). E. coli does not have introns.
The point is that the human genome has huge areas where mutations could occur that would have no effect on fitness. Mutations would be much more likely to affect fitness in bacteria. So their "simpler genomes" means more can go wrong.
If something does go wrong, then natural selection should spot it right away and remove it. The near neutral theory, however, allows for slightly deleterious mutations to squeak by, unnoticed by natural selection.
You seem to imagine natural selection as an active agent that constantly scans the genome for defects so it can remove them. Not so. If a fruit fly was born with one leg that was 25% shorter than the others, that would probably be a slightly deleterious mutation, right? But... would that stop him from finding a mate and producing offspring? Probably not. So he mates and the female lays 1,000 eggs, roughly half of which have this slightly deleterious mutation. This would be how slightly deleterious mutations "squeak by, unnoticed by natural selection." The question should be "Will the mutation affect the organism's ability to produce offspring?" That is how fitness is determined by natural selection.
I like uphill battles.
Do you like uphill battles just for the sake of uphill battles? I hope you are the kind of person who is willing to learn a few things rather than just wanting to rage against something you don't like or don't understand.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by faceman, posted 05-27-2014 2:20 AM faceman has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 887 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 220 of 253 (728367)
05-27-2014 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by faceman
05-24-2014 1:22 PM


Re: once more around the bushes
By "in the way", I meant it will no longer be "available" to the organism as a source of useful information, like it was before it mutated into a neutral mutation. In that way, it serves no purpose and eventually could be thought of as deleterious because it will no longer help the organism stave off genetic extinction.
Here is a research article that may help to clarify RAZD's points about duplication. Read it through and see if it clears up the misconception about useful information no longer being available.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by faceman, posted 05-24-2014 1:22 PM faceman has not replied

  
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