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Author Topic:   Evolution falsifies God/s?
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4451
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 144 of 253 (727706)
05-20-2014 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by faceman
05-20-2014 12:04 AM


Re: a small step maybe
Actually this is all that we see in the real world. Genetic disorders are on the rise.
Do you have any evidence that genetic disorders are on the rise?
Our knowledge of genetic disorders is increasing all the time. Are you just talking about humans here, because we can see many useful mutations showing up in life on this planet.
Most mutations that remain in the genome of an organism are neutral or beneficial. Deleterious mutations are selected out. Whether a mutation is beneficial or not often depends on the environment and selective pressure.
Faceman message 126 writes:
It increases the genetic load, and since most mutations are not beneficial, that can only lead to a genetic extinction.
Genetic load? You are just making this up. What does it mean? Lethal mutations are removed and non-lethal mutations may be the building blocks of useful changes in phenotype as life goes on.
Do you have any examples of "genetic extinction"? Can you even define it?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by faceman, posted 05-20-2014 12:04 AM faceman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by xongsmith, posted 05-20-2014 2:55 PM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 158 by faceman, posted 05-22-2014 1:39 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4451
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 150 of 253 (727782)
05-20-2014 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by xongsmith
05-20-2014 2:55 PM


Re: a small step maybe
The GOP
You got me. A clear case of devolution and genetic extinction. Shit for brains disorder.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by xongsmith, posted 05-20-2014 2:55 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4451
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 166 of 253 (727982)
05-22-2014 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by faceman
05-22-2014 1:39 AM


Re: a small step maybe
Neutral, deleterious and beneficial are all just mutations from a previously "normal" (non-mutated) gene. Many of the useful mutations are actually a net loss of the original useful code.
There are no normal (non-mutated) genes. All the various alleles of a gene are mutations. How could you possibly tell which allele is the normal one? You just made this up.
Most mutations are neutral. The more neutral mutations there are, the less original useful material the organism has left to work with. Neutral is not useful - it's just in the way.
That is not how it works. The neutral genes are neutral in terms of fitness, but they still function just fine.
There is no original useful material, as you call it, in each organism. The genes have been passed on to offspring, with modification, over and over, since the first common ancestor.
Neutral does not mean non-functional.
__________________________________________________
Natural selection works at the molecular level now? Weeding out only the bad mutations?
Natural Selection will obviously weed out genes that affect the ability of the organism to survive and reproduce, if the organism dies before it can do that. The genes that are carried in the rest of the population will be passed on, but if there were new beneficial mutations in the organism that carried the lethal mutation then they are lost also.
The more common situation is that each organism in the population carries a few mutations, some inherited and some new, and some of the members of the population have fewer offspring than others, and over time fewer and fewer descendants.
Genetic load is a bullshit term that creationists grab on to because sounds like it means something that supports their ideas, but it doesn't. There is no evidence that a genome can be overburdened to the point it quits functioning.
quote:
One problem with calculating genetic load is that in order to do so you have to a have a perfect or optimal genotype with which to compare the population to; this kind of genotype simply does not exist. This is problem because it means that it is harder for scientists to gauge with accuracy how much load a population has, and how much load it can bear without being in danger. This means that all perceptions of genetic load should be taken with a grain of salt.[19]
Emphasis mine.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by faceman, posted 05-22-2014 1:39 AM faceman has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4451
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 182 of 253 (728175)
05-24-2014 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by faceman
05-24-2014 1:22 PM


Re: once more around the bushes
By "in the way", I meant it will no longer be "available" to the organism as a source of useful information, like it was before it mutated into a neutral mutation.
You continue to show that you don't understand the basics of genetics.
Neutral does not mean non-functioning.
it serves no purpose and eventually could be thought of as deleterious because it will no longer help the organism stave off genetic extinction.
Genes have functions and neutral genes continue to function.
Neutral means in terms of fitness. Neutral does not add to or subtract from fitness.
I ask again, do you have any examples of genetic extinction that resulted from genetic load?
faceman writes:
RAZD writes:
Change the ecology and you change the equations for what is beneficial, what is neutral and what is deleterious.
So now we need to change the ecology to make the ToE work? Is that how you get neutral mutations to become beneficial?
The ecology changes because ecologies are dynamic. They change continuously and that means that selective pressures change, sometime subtlety and sometimes dramatically. This means that the influence of genes can change to neutral, beneficial or deleterious, in terms of fitness.
That's too clever by half.
Yes, it is quite clever. Finally, you have said something true.
Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by faceman, posted 05-24-2014 1:22 PM faceman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by faceman, posted 05-27-2014 12:11 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4451
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 194 of 253 (728319)
05-27-2014 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by faceman
05-27-2014 12:11 AM


Re: once more around the bushes
See the "nearly neutral theory", where most neutral mutations are actually slightly deleterious, but immune to natural selection, thus they continue to accumulate.
So, who's theory is this? Any clues? By theory, in this case, I assume you mean wild assed guess, rather than what theory means in science.
Do you have any evidence that supports your "nearly neutral theory"?
You still haven't answered my question. Do you have any examples of genetic extinction that resulted from genetic load?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by faceman, posted 05-27-2014 12:11 AM faceman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by faceman, posted 05-27-2014 1:05 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4451
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 215 of 253 (728351)
05-27-2014 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by faceman
05-27-2014 1:05 AM


Re: once more around the bushes
Hi faceman.
Thanks for the advice and information. I don't think her nearly neutral theory says what you think it does, or that it is the cause of your genetic extinction.
_________________________________________________
You still haven't answered my question. Do you have any examples of genetic extinction that resulted from genetic load?
No not yet, but keep your eye on the atheist from WI, he seems to be nearing meltdown real soon.
You are new around here, so I will just say "don't hold your breath."

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by faceman, posted 05-27-2014 1:05 AM faceman has not replied

  
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