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Author Topic:   Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
jar
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Posts: 34120
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 3 of 169 (700305)
06-01-2013 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
05-31-2013 1:09 PM


Not egotistical
I don't see it as egotistical at all but it does make the god look really stupid.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 34120
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 30 of 169 (701494)
06-20-2013 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Faith
06-20-2013 7:31 AM


Re: The Trinity
While I am certainly not a JW, it is reasonable that a God cannot die. Unless the whole Jesus story is nothing but a farce and a joke then Jesus, while living on earth and from the moment of his birth until after his death was not a god but simply, totally and only human.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 34120
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 32 of 169 (701499)
06-20-2013 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by onifre
06-20-2013 9:12 AM


Re: The Trinity
Actually Jesus is not even the first example of resurrection in the Bible.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34120
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 36 of 169 (701504)
06-20-2013 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
06-20-2013 9:28 AM


Re: The Trinity
Faith writes:
The other "resurrections" in the Bible were only temporary and they went on to die again. What is meant by saying that Jesus is the "first" is bigger than that anyway, it means that He is now the first or the head of the New Creation and that all those who believe in Him will also be resurrected into transformed bodies just as He is. His resurrection is a new beginning.
But that has nothing to do with the fact that Jesus is NOT the only or even the first resurrection in the Bible and it is also yet another example of misrepresenting what the Bible actually says.
It is the ascension that is different but even there, Jesus is not unique or even the first.
Have you ever read the Bible Faith?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 34120
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 55 of 169 (701898)
06-27-2013 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
06-27-2013 12:38 PM


Re: The Trinity
Faith writes:
Jesus did not inherit the sin nature from the Fall because that is inherited through the father not the mother and His father was God the Father.
There is no "Fall" in the Bible. Nor is there any "inheritable sin nature" in the Bible.
Faith writes:
Jesus was the only sinless man since before Adam fell.
Yet the Bible clearly shows examples of Jesus sinning.
I understand that Christianity has often been marketed like your spiel and that spiel is a great way to con the rubes but it is not Biblical.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 54 by Faith, posted 06-27-2013 12:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 06-27-2013 3:50 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34120
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 57 of 169 (701915)
06-27-2013 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Faith
06-27-2013 3:50 PM


Re: The Fall
You quote Paul yet Paul never says what passages he is using. They certainly don't refer to the Genesis 2&3 fable since that is NOT a Fall according to the God in the story and in fact if anything it is a rise.
You really haven't actually read the Bible have you Faith.
You are also using another of those Bibles that adds words I see.
So much for honesty or a literal Bible.
Now granted Paul did a lot of just making shit up when he was trying to market his new franchise, but the passage in Romans is just another example of unsupported assertion.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 06-27-2013 3:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 06-27-2013 4:06 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34120
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 59 of 169 (701918)
06-27-2013 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
06-27-2013 4:06 PM


Re: The Fall
If you actually read Genesis 2&3 there is no sin involved. In fact until after Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil they would have been incapable of knowing they should obey God over any other individual, death already existed, there is no sin that is passed down to all men, and in fact as I said, the God character in the story sees just the opposite of man falling, rather man becoming like a god.
If Paul is using the Genesis story as the basis of those passages you took out of context, then Paul is simply wrong. mistaken or making shit up.
There is nothing in Genesis 2&3 that says or even implies that "all their progeny were born with the sin nature, all of us born in sin, sinners and inclined to sin from birth because of their original sin."
You are simply making that up or repeating stuff someone made up and sold you.
If you would like I will, as you know, be happy to post all of Genesis 2&3 so you can actually read it.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 06-27-2013 4:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 06-27-2013 4:35 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34120
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 64 of 169 (701927)
06-27-2013 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
06-27-2013 4:35 PM


Re: The Fall
Faith writes:
God said not to eat of that particular tree. They disobeyed and ate of that tree. Disobedience of God is sin. Odd that anyone should have to spell out something so obvious.
Before you can know to obey you first need to know right and wrong. Odd that anyone should have to spell out something so obvious.
Until Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge they had no way to know they should obey God over the Serpent, particularly since the Serpent character told the truth and the God character did not.
Faith writes:
Clearly they knew it was sin and yet they did it. God said if they ate of that tree they would die, showing that until that point there was no death. The Romans verses I quoted are quite clear that death was passed down to all of us because of the original sin of the first man Adam.
Bullshit. Utter bullshit.
The fact that God created a Tree that would prevent death shows that death already existed or the God character again is simply asinine.
Actually the God character in the story says as soon as you eat from the Tree you will die, but we know that didn't happen.
The God character in the story was afraid though that man would now eat from the Tree of Life and so become immortal as well as having the same knowledge of what's right and what's wrong as God and so the God character chased them out of the Garden of Eden. But that did not change Adam and Eve in anyway OR introduce death. That is simply not in the story.
In the story Adam and Eve would have died anyway UNLESS they ate from the Tree of Life.
You really do need to learn to read what is actually written Faith.
Faith writes:
It does make it clear that death entered as a result of their disobedience. God told them they would die if they ate of the tree so we know that death did result from their eating of the tree. Beyond that, we are to understand the Old Testament through the New. It often takes the New Testament to bring out the meanings of the Old.
More bullshit Faith. The Old Testament says what it says. The New Testament cannot in any way alter the meaning of what was already written.
Further, they did not die from eating from the Tree of Knowledge, they die because the God character in the story prevents them from eating from the Tree of Life.
Honestly, the God character in the story is an immoral ass who creates an attractive nuisance, denies Adam and Eve the tools needed to know they should obey the God character and then punishes them for doing what He set them up to do.
If there are any sins in the Genesis 2&3 fable it is the God character sinning.
And that still has jack shit to do with any "sin nature".

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 06-27-2013 4:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 06-27-2013 9:48 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34120
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 73 of 169 (701946)
06-28-2013 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
06-27-2013 9:48 PM


Re: The Fall
Faith writes:
They did die just as God said they would. First they lost their comfortable connection with God -- first they died spiritually in other words. And the seeds of death and disease began to work in their bodies as well, until they did finally die physically too, which would not have happened if they hadn't disobeyed. "The wages of sin is death" says scripture. Without sin there is no death.
Sorry but that is NOT what the story actually says Faith, you are just once again making shit up and misrepresenting what the Bible actually says.
There is nothing in the story that says they lost any connection with God and in fact, God continues to visit them, to talk to them, to make clothes for them, to bless them. There is nothing in the Genesis 2&3 fable that says or implies that the wages of sin is death.
Faith writes:
Had they eaten of the Tree of Life after the Fall they would have become immortal, yes, immortally EVIL, like Satan. That's what God was protecting them from by preventing access to that tree. The Tree of Life is finally given to us when we've been cleansed of sin through Jesus' death, so that ultimately we can be immortally good rather than evil.
Again Faith you are just making shit up and misrepresenting what the Bible says. There is nothing in the Genesis 2&3 fable that implies that they would have or ever were evil, and in fact it shows just the opposite. Once they had the tools to know they had done wrong they were sorry and afraid.
As the God character says:
quote:
"22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."
There is nothing there about becoming evil or that Satan is evil. In fact the Old Testament says that Satan is obedient and only does what God tells Satan to do.
The difference Faith is that I read what is actually there while you misinterpret what is actually there.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 06-27-2013 9:48 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34120
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 77 of 169 (701980)
06-28-2013 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by ICANT
06-28-2013 12:35 PM


Re: Original Sin?
No contract was possible between God and Adam or God and Eve in the fable recounted in Genesis 2. To even think a contract was possible is absurd.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 34120
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 85 of 169 (702065)
06-30-2013 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
06-30-2013 2:28 AM


Let's go get stoned.
I'm not sure hate is the right word. They stoned Stephen because he was a blasphemer.
Edited by jar, : fix subtitle

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 06-30-2013 3:57 PM jar has replied
 Message 100 by foreveryoung, posted 07-01-2013 7:54 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34120
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 87 of 169 (702074)
06-30-2013 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
06-30-2013 3:57 PM


Re: Let's go get stoned.
Stephen was a character in a story. The writer is telling propaganda, marketing a new product but without acknowledging it really was a new product.
Truth had nothing to do with the reality.
The Bible is not about Truth, rather it is about marketing a new religion while coopting the older religion.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 06-30-2013 3:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 06-30-2013 5:50 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34120
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 90 of 169 (702079)
06-30-2013 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
06-30-2013 5:50 PM


Re: Saint Stephen versus the Ain't Listening Bunch.
Did I use the word "corrupting"?
Jesus did not and does not meet any of the criteria for the Jewish messiah.
Phat writes:
Truth was rejected in favor of the reality that humans chose. The same stubborn nature that was in the men who stoned Stephen is in the minds and hearts of many self proclaimed intellectuals to this day. Reject the truth and embrace reality as you determine it. Sad mistake.
So you say. From the some Christian marketing position I assume. But like Jesus, the audience were not Christians but Jews.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 06-30-2013 5:50 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34120
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 101 of 169 (702146)
07-01-2013 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by foreveryoung
07-01-2013 7:54 PM


Re: Let's go get stoned.
Yes, we know that is how the writer of Acts sold the story, but is that anything other than propaganda?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by foreveryoung, posted 07-01-2013 7:54 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34120
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 103 of 169 (702150)
07-01-2013 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by foreveryoung
07-01-2013 8:07 PM


Re: Let's go get stoned.
It is the word of man. The authors may well have been inspired but they were just men, often writing absurdities, nonsense, stuff that is just plain wrong. When it comes to the New Testament it is primarily marketing.
There is a difference between being biased and propaganda though and being false. The story of Stephen is told in Acts from the point of view of someone actively trying to document the early Christian perspective, to market the new product Christianity.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 105 by Phat, posted 07-02-2013 2:23 AM jar has replied

  
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