Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 52 (9179 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Post Volume: Total: 918,169 Year: 5,426/9,624 Month: 451/323 Week: 91/204 Day: 7/26 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
ICANT
Member (Idle past 138 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 69 of 169 (701939)
06-28-2013 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Faith
06-27-2013 5:10 PM


Re: The Trinity
Hi Faith,
Faith writes:
Although it was Eve who sinned first,
There is no place in the Bible where God told the woman not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and if she did she would die.
Here is the command given:
quote:
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The woman did not exist at this time.
The man is the only one given the command.
quote:
Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
The man was not present when the woman had the conversation with the serpent and her eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The woman's eyes was not opened by her eating of the fruit.
When the woman gave the fruit to the man and he chose to eat the fruit then their eyes was opened
quote:
Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Since the woman was not commanded by God to not eat the fruit there was no disobedience involved by her eating the fruit.
The man disobeyed God's command to him not to eat the fruit which separated all mankind from God.
Faith writes:
I think it comes from the Reformers but I'd have to research it. But I did give jar some texts to support the scriptural claim that we inherit sin "through one man," that is, Adam, leaving out the phrases that say that just as all inherit sin in Adam so now through Christ we inherit life.
We do not inherit sin. We do inherit a sin nature.
We are separated from God because of the disobedience of the man that was formed from the dust of the ground.
An example I like to use.
I have a ranch that has a beautiful 5 bedroom house on it. I invite you to come to live on my ranch. Everything is supplied for you and all you have to do is look after my ranch. But there is one stipulation to the deal. There is one of the bedrooms that has a sign on the door stating if you open this door you will be expelled from the ranch.
You enjoy the ranch but one day you look at that door and the curiosity gets the best of you and you just have to open the door that you were forbidden to open. When you open the door you see a beautiful room so you close the door. You think no one will ever know you opened that door.
But about an hour later a big moving van pulls up to the front of the house and several men come in and take all your belongings and put them in the van. They order you into the van and take you and your belongings to the entrance to the ranch unloads all your stuff and tells you are on your own.
Do you or any of your descendants have any right to come live on my ranch?
The only way you are any of your descendants would ever be able to live on my ranch would be if I made a deal with you or your descendants.
Well God placed man in a paradise and told him to dress keep it.
Man broke the rules.
God kicked the man out of His paradise.
The only way any of his descendants can live in God's paradise is if He makes a way for them to do so.
Which is exactly what He did at Calvary.
Everyone here makes fun of Jesus death as it was no sacrifice and in reality it was not. Mankind was not given the opportunity to live in God's paradise by the death of that physical body.
When Jesus hung on the cross and took the sins of mankind on Himself God the Father turned His back on God the Son. They were separated for the space of 3 hours so that all who believe and accept the promise of God could be in a right relationship with God.
quote:
27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
That 3 hours of darkness when God the Father had abandoned God the Son made it possible for mankind to be restored to the position the man that was formed from the dust of the earth had with God as they strolled in the garden having perfect fellowship.
Some would say, how is that possible. God is sovereign and can do anything He desires to do.
It takes no more faith to believe that the eternal God exists and can do what He says He will do than it takes to believe that there was an absence of anything and out of that absence of anything came everything that has existed and exists in the universe today.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 06-27-2013 5:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 138 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 71 of 169 (701941)
06-28-2013 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Coyote
06-27-2013 10:37 PM


Re: The Fall and "original sin"
Hi Coyote,
Coyote writes:
I consider the twin concepts of 'the fall' and 'original sin' to be the most evil concepts ever concocted in the fevered and duplicitous minds of shamans. The quotation above is a good summary of why.
Could you supply a scriptural text that talks of 'the fall' you are referring too?
I assume you are talking of 'the fall' of mankind.
If that is what you are referring too, I can not find it in the Bible text.
Could you supply a scriptural text that mentions 'original sin'?
I find 'original sin' no place in the Bible text.
You are correct that they were concocted in the minds of mankind, as they are not in the Bible.
The first man formed from the dust of the ground had the ability to choose to believe and do whatever he chose to do. His descendants have the same ability.
The problem is that mankind today was separated from God by the choice the man formed from the dust of the ground made when he disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
God provided the solution for that problem by offering mankind a free full pardon (it's called justification) through the sacrifice made at Calvary.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Coyote, posted 06-27-2013 10:37 PM Coyote has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 138 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 72 of 169 (701942)
06-28-2013 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Iblis
06-28-2013 1:10 AM


Re: Original Sin?
ICANT writes:
Hi Iblis,
Why did you title your message original sin and then present the following?
I see the question of "originality" has reared its lovely head again
Whenever this happens, I like to drag out an old gimmick known in the racket as Socrates Is Praying For Icewater and, ask a little question ...
WHO WAS THE FIRST LIAR?
To resolve this quandary, we should look at the oldest case we have on record where two characters made statements which disagreed radically with one another; and then look at what the actual outcome was to see who wasn't telling the truth. Yeah?
Exhibit 1
Genesis 2:16, 17 writes:
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
ICANT writes:
The man formed from the dust of the ground died the same day that he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He began to exist in the day THE LORD GOD created the heavens and the earth (which took place in Genesis 1:1). This man did not exist in the evening that is found in Genesis 1:2. Day one was not completed until the morning that followed the dark period that existed at Genesis 1:2 as declared by God in Genesis 1:5.
Exhibit 2
Genesis 3:4, 5 writes:
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
ICANT writes:
The serpent did not tell the truth concerning death but he did tell the truth about her eyes being opened as her eyes was opened in the day that the man ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So I will assume the serpent was the first LIAR.
Exhibit 3
Genesis 3:22, 23 writes:
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
ICANT writes:
I don't see what your problem is with this text. His eyes were opened and he did know good and evil. He knew good before he ate the fruit. But when he disobeyed and ate the fruit he also know evil (disobedience). He was kicked out of the garden. He also died the same day.
Appendix
Genesis 5:3, 4 writes:
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
ICANT writes:
Now you are talking about the mankind who were created male and female at the same time in the image of God. You are not talking about the man formed from the dust of the ground that was placed in a garden and disobeyed the one command he was given.
So, you be the judge. . . .
ICANT writes:
So what are the problems you are having with the Bible texts you presented as your exhibits?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Iblis, posted 06-28-2013 1:10 AM Iblis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by rueh, posted 06-28-2013 10:33 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 81 by Iblis, posted 06-28-2013 10:52 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 138 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 75 of 169 (701969)
06-28-2013 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by rueh
06-28-2013 10:33 AM


Re: Original Sin?
Hi rueh,
A good morning to you.
rueh writes:
Goodmorning ICANT
You say that the first created man and women in Genesis 1 (who it never specifically names Adam and Eve) did not eat of the tree, were never commanded to eat from the tree and are the characters who in Genesis 5 go on to live named as Adam and Eve and beget all their sons and daughters.
It does not make any difference what I say. The only thing that matters is what the Hebrew text says.
quote:
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
According to the context of that verse the word translated 'man' should have been translated 'mankind', as there was male and female and man would only refer to the male. Notice also it does not say He only created 1 of each. It says He created them, there could have been more than 1 of each. They were created at the same time.
This mankind was created in the image/likeness of God.
This mankind was created (ברא ) not formed (יצר ).
quote:
Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
This mankind was created in the image/likeness of God.
The translators called this man Adam. Adam is the transliteration of the Hebrew word אדם which is translated man.
To get Adam out of the Hebrew word they have to use the vowels added to the Masoretic text that was finished in 915 AD.
Pay close attention to what they were called. They were both called Adam, by the translators. There was no Eve, only Adams.
The story in Genesis 1:2 - 2:3 is much younger than the story in Genesis 2:4 - 25. Therefore the mankind created in the image/likeness of God in Genesis 1:27 was not the first mankind on earth.
rueh writes:
Yet the man and women in Genesis 2 (who are specifically named Adam and Eve) were the ones to eat the fruit which the man was commanded not to do and then died. Is that a fair synopsis of your argument?
The man in Genesis 2:7 was never named Adam. The transliteration of the Hebrew word for man/mankind was translated as Adam by the translators.
So yes this man that was formed from the dust of the ground was the man placed in the garden and the one who was commanded not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He disobeyed that command and ate the fruit causing the universe and all it's present and future inhabitants to be under the penalty of sin which is death. Death is separation and that man was separated from God in the day he ate the fruit as well as he died physically in the day he ate the fruit, as he did not exist at Genesis 1:2.
The man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 called the woman that was made from a rib from his body Eve in Genesis 3:20. The name Eve appears 4 times in the Bible. Genesis 3:20 when the man called his wife Eve. In Genesis 4:1 concerning the birth of Cain. In 2 Corinthians 11:3 Paul mentions Eve being beguiled by the serpent. In 1 Timothy 2:13 Paul states man was formed first and then Eve. He goes on in the next verse to state the man was not deceived.
rueh writes:
If that is the case then how could the man and women from Genesis 1 be givin the blame and an inherited sinful nature from the actions of the man and women from Genesis 2?
They were not given blame. You seem to believe that what people do is what determines where they will spend eternity.
All mankind was separated from God when the perfect man who was formed from the dust of the ground disobeyed a direct command from God. Not only was mankind separated from God but the universe and everything in it.
That is the reason John told us in John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life".
The world there includes the entire universe which Peter tells us will melt with fervent heat. 2 Peter 3:10.
Which requires a New Heaven and a New Earth to begin to exist as John tells us will happen in Revelation 21:1.
rueh writes:
In your example of a farm house you only have 1 man who disobeys. Inorder for it to acuratly portray your position you need 2 people in your example. 1 person who is never given a command to enter the room and another who is commanded not to enter the room. Then when the 2nd man disobeys he is killed and the first man thrown out for actions he had no part in.
I can't find any place where I said the person would die in my example.
My example was concerning the person being able to stay on my ranch in the house on the ranch with everything they needed supplied by me. Their entire family could have been present, husband, wife, 10 kids, 2 dogs and 3 cats. The restrictions would have still applied, but the only one that would have breached the contract would have been the one I made the deal with.
But when I expelled them from my ranch my question was, would any of that persons descendants have a right to live on my ranch?
They would not unless I made such an offer and they accepted my offer.
God expelled mankind from His paradise, so what person that came after than man could claim a right to reside in that paradise?
God made mankind an offer that all could reside in His paradise. To do so all one has to do is accept the offer God made.
rueh writes:
In other words if the Adam from Genesis 5 is the the man from Genesis 1, then he is not at fault for the actions of Adam from Genesis 2.
If a man has sex with a woman who produces a child that he is the father of and he goes his way never seeing the child or providing for the child, does the child suffer loss because of the actions of the father?
That is the same way mankind suffers loss due to the transgression of the perfect man formed from the dust of the ground.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by rueh, posted 06-28-2013 10:33 AM rueh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-28-2013 12:47 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied
 Message 77 by jar, posted 06-28-2013 1:03 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 06-28-2013 1:18 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied
 Message 79 by rueh, posted 06-28-2013 4:24 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 138 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 80 of 169 (702011)
06-28-2013 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by rueh
06-28-2013 4:24 PM


Re: Original Sin?
Hi rueh,
rueh writes:
Ok so Genesis 1 God creates "Mankind" they do not eat from the tree of knowledge.
Yes god created 'mankind' in His image/likeness in Genesis 1:27.
Concerning what they could eat the text says:
quote:
1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
This mankind was never placed in a garden to dress and keep it.
There is no mention of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It did not exist at this time.
There was no fruit that was forbidden.
rueh writes:
Genesis 2 God creates Adam and then creates a women from Adam who Adam names Eve. Correct?
This man was not created. He was formed from the dust of the ground. Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul".
The woman was cloned from a rib of the man. Genesis 2:22 "And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man".
Neither was created, they were made.
The man called the woman Eve.
The translators gave the man the name of Adm as they transliterated the Hebrew word for man. They had to use the vowels provided in the Masoretic text of 915 AD to get Adam.
rueh writes:
It is the Genesis 2 Adam and Eve who eat the forbidden fruit and who you say die instantly? I'm still following you right?
I said they died the same day they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. No place did I say they died instantly.
I conclude they died the same day they ate the fruit as they did not exist in Genesis 1:2 where there is evening bringing on night which ended with the following morning that God declared 'day one' in Genesis 1:5 "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day".
First does not appear in the Hebrew text but the numeral one does and the text should have been translated 'day one'.
Therefore they did not exist on the second day.
rueh writes:
If that is the case then how can Adam and Eve be in Genesis 5 to sire Cain, Able, Seth and all the other offspring?
You are under the assumption that the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 and woman made from the rib of that man in Genesis 2:22 are one and the same as the mankind created in the image/likeness of God on the sixth day in Genesis 1:27.
They can not be the same as the people in chapter 2 was made in the day the LORD GOD created the heavens and the earth. Gen. 2:4
The mankind in Genesis 1:27 was created, on the sixth day.
So the mankind in Genesis 5:1 is are the mankind created in the image/likeness of God in Genesis 1:27.
quote:
5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
rueh writes:
Also, how is it that the Genesis 1 "Mankind" are suffering from the consequences of Genesis 2's Adam.
Had the man not eaten of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would still be in the garden walking and talking with God. But since he did eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil the entire universe and everything in it was separated from God and under the penalty of death.
rueh writes:
Who is supposedly dead even though it talks about his offspring in Genesis 4 and 5?
Yes it talks about the children of the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis chapter 4.
But the generations beginning in Genesis 5:1 are of the mankind that was created in the image/likeness of God in Genesis 1:27 not the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7.
rueh writes:
God says nothing to the Genesis 2 Adam about sin entering the world or a seperation from God for all of the Genesis 1 "Mankind". Only that when you eat from it you will certainly die.
I was beginning to think you could not understand what you was reading. But with this observation you have just been toying with me.
You are correct that God told the man the day he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would die. He died that same day, as did all his children. None of them existed at Genesis 1:2 which was the evening of 'DAY ONE'.
Paul tells us in Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned":
'Have sinned' should have been translated ' to be without a share in'.
Which is referring to the atonement mentioned in verse 11.
rueh writes:
What I was trying to explain is that your analogy is not synonymous with the two Genesis tales. If it was you would need 2 people. One who comes first who doesn't live in the house and no instructions are given to and the second who comes later and are told not to open a certain room or else he will die. Now curiousity gets the better of the second person. He opens the room and when the transgression is found out they are instead expelled instead of killed and who go on to live a full life with many kids for hundreds of years. The first person though has no chance now of being able to go to the house nor are any of his descendants able to go to the house because the second person broke a rule.
My analogy was not meant to be synonymous with the two Genesis tales, and was not presented as such.
My question qualified what my purpose was.
In Message 69 I asked:
quote:
Do you or any of your descendants have any right to come live on my ranch?
So if I had made you the offer instead of Faith would you or your descendants have any rights to come and live on my ranch?
The same would apply to the man formed from the dust of the ground or any mankind that existed after he died. Why would any mankind have a right to dwell in Gods paradise unless He personally extended an invitation to them?
Which he did do. He extends an invitation to any person who will accept His offer of eternal life.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by rueh, posted 06-28-2013 4:24 PM rueh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by rueh, posted 07-01-2013 9:45 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 138 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 82 of 169 (702035)
06-29-2013 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Iblis
06-28-2013 10:52 PM


Re: ICANT
Hi Iblis,
Iblis writes:
Yeah, I'm intimately familiar with your little chimera.
In Message 249 you stated:
quote:
One of us has missed something, and I don't think it's me. He is specifically not trying to fit 2ff into day 6. That is the normal fundie position, it is for example what Peg is trying to do. ICANT has recognized the problems with this, and instead is trying to fit 2:4-4:24 into the gap between 1:1 and 1:2, call it day 0.
Where have I ever placed a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?
Where have I ever called anything day 0?
You must be confusing me with someone else.
I believe Genesis 2:4-Genesis 4:24 took place the same day that God created the heavens and the earth.
quote:
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
This verse claims that the following history (generations) are the history of the day the heavens and the earth was created.
This day ended with the evening found at Genesis 1:2 as God declared that day plus the following night that ended with the following morning as 'DAY ONE'. That means there was no day prior to the day the heavens and the earth was created.
God's definition of a day.
quote:
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
God defined the light period as Day.
God defined the dark period as Night.
God defined the light period and the dark period as Day.
So I have the universe, earth and everything that was created or made beginning to exist in 6 light periods and 6 dark periods which combined make 6 days, in which everything began to exist.
As to Peter's thousand year day where do you find that in the Bible?
Are you getting that from the following text?
quote:
2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
That does not say a day is a thousand years long.
It does say that "one day is with the Lord AS a thousand years". In other words Peter says God is not concerned with time as He is not affected by time. God is eternal. Time is a concept of mankind that God provided the tools for mankind to figure out a measurement of duration in eternity. The earth revolves on its axis in relation to the sun in a duration that mankind has divided up into hours, minutes, seconds and smaller divisions to measure that duration.
Iblis writes:
Genesis 4:25, 26 writes:
And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, [said she], hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
go ahead and give your explanation
I believe Genesis 4:25 and 26 was added by someone who was trying to make one creation story out of Genesis 1:2-2:3 and the story in Genesis 2:4-4:24.
But lets put that aside an say that totally out of place statement existed in the original text.
Cain has great, great, great grandchildren alive at the time the statement is made in Genesis 4:25.
The city of Enoch has been built. Genesis 4:17
Lamech is fearful of his life being taken and he is responsible for the second death recorded in Genesis 2:4 - 4:24
Since all this took place in the day God created the heavens and the earth none of these people are alive at the evening found in Genesis 1:2.
Therefore if there was a Seth born to the man formed from the dust of the ground and the woman he called Eve he is not the Seth mentioned in Genesis 5:3.
The man created in the image/likeness of God in Genesis 1:27 did not have a son named Cain or Abel as they are not listed in his generations listed in Genesis chapter 5.
Iblis writes:
Genesis 5:3, 6 writes:
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: ...
And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
of what's up with these genealogies. Yeah?
There is nothing wrong with the genealogies.
The genealogy listed in Genesis 5:1-32 is the history of the children of the man created in the image/likeness of God in Genesis 1:27.
The genealogy of the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 begins at Genesis 4:1 and ends at Genesis 4:22.
If after 7 generations of people were born cities built the man formed from the dust of the ground had another son he would have been around 170 years old but no one has any age ascribed to them in Genesis 2:4 - 4:26.
There are only 2 deaths recorded, that of Abel and the young man Lamech killed.
Yet none of these people existed on the second day. If fact they did not exist on the earth in Genesis 1:2 for to do so they would have to have been fish.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Iblis, posted 06-28-2013 10:52 PM Iblis has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 138 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 93 of 169 (702109)
07-01-2013 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by rueh
07-01-2013 9:45 AM


Re: Original Sin?
Hi rueh,
rueh writes:
ICANT writes:
Neither was created, they were made.
Now your just being silly. Created and made are synonymous.
And you know that because _____________.
What dictionary are you using to come to that conclusion?
The Hebrew word ברא translated created is Kal perfect 3ps root verb and is always used with God as the subject of the verb.
The Hebrew word ברא means: 1) to create, shape, form Strong's # H1254
That word is used in Genesis 1:1, 1:21 and 1:27 in Genesis chapter 1 and 2. All other uses are of ברא is referring to one of these events.
There are no materials mentioned that these entities came into existence from.
The Hebrew word עשה translated made is a Kal imperfect 3ps root verb and is used with anybody doing work or making things out of existing materials.
The Hebrew word עשה means: 1) to do, fashion, accomplish, make. Strong's # H6213
Both verbs being root words proves they are not the same nor are they synonymous.
Existing material is used to make the man in Genesis 2:7.
No existing material was used to create the mankind in Gen. 1:27
Plants, trees and vegetation were made to exist out of the ground in Genesis 2:9.
God called forth plants, trees, and vegetation after their kind out of their seed that was in the earth. Genesis 1:19
Animals were formed from the dust of the ground. Genesis 2:19
Animals were called forth after their kind. Genesis
The woman was made out of a rib taken from the man. Genesis 2:22
Mankind was created in the image/likeness of God at the same time. Genesis 1:27
Created:
Free online dictionary
1. To cause to exist; bring into being. Created - definition of created by The Free Dictionary
Merriam-Webster online dictionary.
1: to bring into existence Create Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
Made:
Free online dictionary
1. Produced or manufactured by constructing, shaping, or forming. Often used in combination: Made - definition of made by The Free Dictionary
Merriam-Webster online dictionary
1
a : fictitious, invented
b : artificially produced
c : put together of various ingredients

Made Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
Conclusions concerning created and made being synonymous.
According to the Lexicons and modern Dictionaries the two words are not synonymous.
If you disagree please present your argumentation refuting what the Lexicons and dictionaries say.
rueh writes:
How is that possible when the Genesis 4 Adam and Eve are said to give birth to Seth who begets Enosh
Genesis 4 writes:
25 Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth,[h] saying, God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him. 26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh.
As I stated in the post you are replying too, it makes no difference whether they had a son called Seth or not, He did not exist at Genesis 1:2 as there was no life on earth. He would have been born in the DAY the LORD GOD created the heavens and the earth which took place in Genesis 1:1.
reuh writes:
Genesis 4 writes:
25 Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth,[h] saying, God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him. 26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh.
As I have said previously I believe Genesis 4:25, and 26 was added by some early copyist who was trying to make one story out of Genesis 1:2 - 2:3. If time was counted during the day God created the heavens and the earth in which all the descendants of Cain began to exist the man formed from the dust of the ground would have been 170 years old by the time vs 25 and 26 took place. But even if they did exist in chapter 4 they did not exist at Genesis 1:2.
rueh writes:
Genesis 5 writes:
3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.
6 When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father of Enosh. 7 After he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters. 8 Altogether, Seth lived a total of 912 years, and then he died.
Clearly Genesis 4 and 5 Adam and Eve are the same people.
A plain reading of the text shows that if the Genesis 5 Adam and Eve are the Genesis 1 Adam (as you state they are) then the Genesis 4 Adam and Eve are the Genesis 5 Adam and Eve. That they did not die the same day they ate the fruit and that the continued to live on and beget the generations of Adam in Genesis 5. Any other view is just mental gymnastics inorder to remove a blatant contradiction from what in the story God says will happen to what the story says actually happened.
A plain reading of chapter 1 and 2 of Genesis put forth the following facts.
The man formed from the ground in Genesis 2:7 was the first life form on earth, and was formed in the same day the LORD GOD created the heavens and the earth. Thus he was formed on DAY one.
quote:
Genesis :4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
There was no plants, no herbs and it had never rained on the earth before the man was formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7.
The mankind created from nothing in Genesis 1:27 in the image/likeness of God, male and female at the same time was created on the sixth day. After all vegetation of all kinds and creatures of all kinds existed.
quote:
Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
There is no way a person that is formed from the dust of the ground before any other life forms as stated in:
quote:
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Can be the same man as the one created on the sixth day after all other life forms was called fourth after their kind.
There are no contradictions between what is said in Genesis 1:2 - 2:3 and Genesis 2:4 - 2:25.
The reason is, they are not the history of the same events.
The events in Genesis 2:4 - 4:24 (you can add verse 25, and 26 if you desire too) took place in the same light period (day as defined by God in Genesis 1:5) as darkness existed at Genesis 1:2. These events took place in the beginning whenever that was.
The events recorded in Genesis 1:2 - 2:3 took place in the recent past six to ten thousand years ago.
I would actually think anyone who believes the BBT theory and evolution would be glad to hear a Bible believing creationist give as much duration in existence as would be necessary for those events to take place.
But regardless of what mankind (including me) believes and accepts they can not change what the text says as it is already written down in black and white.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by rueh, posted 07-01-2013 9:45 AM rueh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by rueh, posted 07-01-2013 3:09 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 95 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-01-2013 4:03 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 138 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 97 of 169 (702125)
07-01-2013 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by rueh
07-01-2013 3:09 PM


Re: Original Sin?
Hi rueh,
rueh writes:
Definition: develop in mind or physically
So was heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1 developed in the mind or was the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1 developed physically?
If they were developed physically, what kind of work did God do and what materials did he make into the heavens and the earth.
The definition provided by your thesaurus does not state in the definition that make and created are synonymous.
You are making the mistake of believing the Bible was written in English. Well it was not, it was written in Paleo, later translated into Hebrew, yet later translated into Greek and much later translated into English.
The Hebrew has two specific root verbs, one for created and one for make. Each has a different application.
The Hebrew word translated as make is in the Bible 2,633 times.
The Hebrew word translated as created is in the Bible 45 times in 38 verses. All these are referring to Genesis 1:1, 21, or 27.
If the Hebrews thought they where synonymous why did they even use a word for create?
rueh writes:
Note that even in Genesis 3 the man did not die. Only banished to work the ground.
Yes he was banished from the garden in chapter 3.
rueh writes:
Same man, still not dead begetting Cain and Able.
Yes he had two sons one called Cain and one Abel. You find Cain's descendants listed in chapter 4. Which included his great, great, great grandchildren.
rueh writes:
Same man, still not dead begetting Seth.
Maybe but maybe not as he would have been at least 170 years old if time was being counted as it is today.
rueh writes:
Clearly the same man begetting Seth
No way, as this Seth in chapter 5 was born to the mankind created in the image/likeness of God. The only man created in image/likeness of God was the male of the mankind created in Genesis 1:27.
quote:
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
The generations of the mankind created in the likeness of God is what is recorded in Chapter 5 of Genesis according to 5:1.
It does not say it is the generations of the man formed from the dust of the earth.
If it was it would have started with the firstborn son which was Cain.
Another reason is can not be the generations of the man formed from the dust of the ground is that he began to exist the same day the LORD GOD created the heavens and the earth which took place in Genesis 1:1 and the man did not exist at Genesis 1:2. Day one was not declared until God gave the definition of day in Genesis 1:5.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by rueh, posted 07-01-2013 3:09 PM rueh has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 138 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 99 of 169 (702132)
07-01-2013 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by New Cat's Eye
07-01-2013 4:03 PM


Hi CS,
Catholic Scientist writes:
Huh. Last time I brought it up you said they were two different groups of people who coincidentally had the same names. Now you're saying the versus were added in.
You forgot about raking me over the coals for accusing the scribes of adding to God's word.
Catholic Scientist writes:
Do you have any reason to believe that those verses were added other than the fact that they prove your theory to be wrong?
Whether they are there are not has no effect on my theory or what the Bible says.
The man formed from the dust of the earth was created in the day the LORD GOD created the heavens and earth as given in the generations of the heavens and the earth beginning at Genesis 2:4.
Catholic Scientist writes:
How do you know that other versus weren't added in as well?
I am sure there are other stuff that have been added and taken out as we only have copies of copies of copies, of copies, of copies, of copies for an unknown number of copies in which everyone was made by mankind who has a way of adding information and removing information that fits their bias.
My reason for believing they were added is because they read as an afterthought. You have Lamech concerned about what is going to happen to him because he has killed a young man and thinking his punishment will be worse than Cain's was.
Then the very next two verses appear.
Had they been inserted between 4:15 and 16 I would say they belonged.
But as far as my theory as you call it, it does not make any difference in my theory as the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:4 or any of his descendants exist at Genesis 1:2.
Therefore could not be any of the people mentioned in the Genesis 5:1 generations.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-01-2013 4:03 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 138 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 109 of 169 (702251)
07-02-2013 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by hooah212002
07-01-2013 5:39 PM


Hi hooah,
hooah212002 writes:
Certainly there are far better threads to argue about the oddities of the verbiage used in ICANT's special genesis and a "god is dead" thread is not that place.
But God is not dead.
The physical body He walked around here on earth is dead. It died when His Spirit left that body on the cross when He said: "it is finished".
quote:
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
But how do you expect to understand how God could produce eternal life for anyone who believes and trusts in what He did at Calvary if you can not understand how He caused the heavens and the earth to exist?
A person that does not believe Genesis 1:1 will never believe John 3:16, 17, and 18.
quote:
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by hooah212002, posted 07-01-2013 5:39 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by hooah212002, posted 07-02-2013 7:26 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 138 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 111 of 169 (702283)
07-03-2013 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by hooah212002
07-02-2013 7:26 PM


Hi hooah,
hooah writes:
Then it is erroneous to say "god died for you" since the jesus body was just a vehicle. Death for this god character never happened. Thanks for the clarification.
You keep confusing me with other people.
I have said many times in posts on this site that the separation of God the Father and God the Son while the Son hung on the cross is what satisfied God the Father for the disobedience of the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7.
I also said I do not understand how God the Father could separate Himself from God the Son. But any entity that could create the universe we see today could do anything He desired to do.
So the physical death the body suffered really had nothing to do with purchasing my eternal life. It only had to do with something mankind could see and relate too. Most have never contemplated what agony God the Son was in when God the Father separated Himself from Him as they had never been separated in eternity past. So He was separated from God the Father for 3 hours so I could spend eternity with God. Just as all those who will accept His offer of eternal life.
hooah writes:
Any god worth it's salt doesn't require some deep meditation or wonky interpretation in order to understand his message of "hey, here I am, you guys are killing me and in doing so I wipe all sin from earth and forgive you", but in actuality that doesn't work because if this avatar did do this, it failed miserably and wasted it's time.
And you know He wasted his time as you have died and came back to set us straight that He failed miserably.
hooah writes:
"poof, magic" is how he did it, right? Not very hard to understand how you guys claim he did it. Your book spends all of what, like a page or two describing the process? And yet you spend how many pages trying to explain it? And it takes you so much effort because your reading is so different from everyone else. Color me unimpressed.
Where does the Bible claim "poof, magic" and the heavens and the earth existed?
In fact, where in Genesis 1:1 is there any description of how God created the heavens and the earth?
quote:
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
That verse simply makes a statement that God caused the heavens and the earth to exist. It is a declarative statement of completed action. There is nothing lacking and He did a complete job in Genesis 1:1.
As I search through the Bible I can find no description of how or the duration of the beginning.
As you well know I am on record as saying that I believe the heavens and the earth have always existed in some form just not in the form we see them today.
So my feeble attempt to understand what took place in the DAY the LORD GOD created the heavens and the earth is just that. I can only take what the text says and try to understand what took place in that first light period that ended at Genesis 1:2 as the close of that dark period with morning was declared as DAY one.
Now if we can't understand that beginning to it's fullness, how can we begin to understand what God the Son suffered to buy back mankind out of the slavery he was sold into by the man formed from the dust of the ground?
But for anyone to think that the death of a physical body could pay the ransom for mankind not being separated from God for eternity is a lack of understanding of what took place at Calvary.
quote:
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Notice that Jesus said it is finished before He bowed his head and the physical body expired.
So to say God the Son died that mankind could be saved is not correct.
The ransom was paid when Jesus said: "it is finished".
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by hooah212002, posted 07-02-2013 7:26 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by hooah212002, posted 07-03-2013 5:08 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 07-04-2013 12:05 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 115 by Straggler, posted 07-04-2013 12:58 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 138 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 114 of 169 (702333)
07-04-2013 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by ringo
07-04-2013 12:05 PM


Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
So why didn't he say that right off the bat and dispense with all of the drama?
I quoted the scripture where Jesus did say it was finished while the earthly body was still alive.
All the drama has been added by those who do not know what the text says or just ignores what it says.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 07-04-2013 12:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 07-04-2013 1:15 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 138 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 118 of 169 (702340)
07-04-2013 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Straggler
07-04-2013 12:58 PM


Re: Agony
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Are not most people separated from 'God the father'?
Only those who have died without accepting His offer of eternal live.
You are not separated from God as you receive the on going life you have on earth from Him.
quote:
Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Straggler writes:
Is it really such agony?
The agony does not begin until the physical body dies and the spiritual being is placed in the holding place until the great white throne judgment at which time that spiritual being will be cast into the lake of fire and separated from God for eternity.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Straggler, posted 07-04-2013 12:58 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by AZPaul3, posted 07-04-2013 6:06 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied
 Message 135 by Straggler, posted 07-05-2013 5:58 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 138 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 119 of 169 (702341)
07-04-2013 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by ringo
07-04-2013 1:15 PM


Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
By "drama", I meant the crucifixion itself. If Jesus could finish his mission by just saying, "It is finished," why did he have to die at all?
The crucifixion was necessary. It showed the total rejection of God the Son by the religious hierarchy of the chosen people.
God the Son could not say "it is finished" until after the separation from God the Father was finished. There was a space of 3 hours that God the Father separated Himself from God the Son that satisfied God the Father as a ransom to restore mankind to the same relationship that mankind had with God in the Garden when they walked and talked with God.
The burial and resurrection of God the Son was to show to mankind that he would be raised and given a glorified body and could spend eternity with God.
The only condition placed on mankind receiving eternal life was he had to accept God's offer of eternal life.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 07-04-2013 1:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 07-04-2013 2:18 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 121 by Stile, posted 07-04-2013 2:20 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 138 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 141 of 169 (702432)
07-05-2013 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Straggler
07-05-2013 5:58 AM


Re: Agony
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
You say "only" but that constitutes the overwhelming majority of people that have ever lived doesn't it?
I have no way of knowing what the numbers would be one way or the other.
Straggler writes:
Are you talking about physical life when you talk about my "ongoing life"?
According to your words He does not have control of your spiritual life as of yet. So yes I am referring to your physical life. When He withdraws the breath of life from your physical body it will cease to live.
Straggler writes:
Why would physical fire have any sensory effect on a spiritual body?
I have no idea. Unless it was something that John used to try to convince people they should not go to that place. Matthew referred to is as outer darkness.
Straggler writes:
Which bit of the bible talks about being separated from God as 'agony'?
I think you were the one that introduced that word into this discussion.
Nevertheless, John tells us:
quote:
Revelation
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The devil and his angels are spiritual beings as well as the beast and the false prophet are. It is said they will be tormented for ever.
You are also a spiritual being that according to your words will be cast into that place if it exists, which you don't believe that it does exist.
But you have a choice that the devil and his angels did not have. You can receive eternal life with God and not have to go to that place.
If you are cast into that place whatever it is you will not only be tormented as the devil and his angels. You will remember every post that was posted to you telling you that you did not have to go to that place. You will have an eternity to wallow in self pity thinking about what could have been.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Straggler, posted 07-05-2013 5:58 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Straggler, posted 07-08-2013 9:47 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024