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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 692 of 872 (859125)
07-28-2019 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 691 by Phat
07-28-2019 4:29 PM


Re: jar prefers Whiskey to Kool Aid
Phat writes:
So yes...in a way you decide not to think, beyond choosing to trust that GOD exists and that He cares whether you choose to trust Him.
Yup, you decide not to think.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 691 by Phat, posted 07-28-2019 4:29 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 694 by Phat, posted 07-29-2019 2:43 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 695 of 872 (859140)
07-29-2019 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 694 by Phat
07-29-2019 2:43 AM


Re: jar prefers Whiskey to Kool Aid
The apologists say that all is fallen and so the numerous wars, atrocities, and even now the competitive nature of some nations who feel they have a manifest destiny to override others and racism and all the other evils are not just humans fault but because they are fallen. Their cry is "We can't help doing evil because Adam and Eve learned how to tell right from wrong."
Honestly, their position is simply pitiful and disgusting.
Phat writes:
You will no doubt say that I should beware the snake oil salesmen, but I find your whole point about God lying to be even more atrocious. Nobody has ever been able to explain why a Creator of all seen and unseen with omnipotent power and omniscient knowledge would have any need to lie.
Yet the Bible says that God does not have omnipotent power and omniscient knowledge and I have pointed out the passages that support my assertion numerous times. Sure there are passages in the Bible where characters claim such things for the God character but the examples I use are the stories where it is the God Character who directly demonstrates and claims to not have total knowledge and where the God Character shows fear or the God Character actually does lie.
There is a difference between some character in a story making claims about another character and examples where the character itself is acting.
The same is true of the Jesus Character in the stories; their are the tales where the behavior of Jesus is directly shown and there are the stories where some other character is making claims about Jesus.
The issue Phat is that I agree that the Bible actually says what is actually written while the Apologists say the Bible means what they want it to mean and not what is actually written.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 694 by Phat, posted 07-29-2019 2:43 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 699 of 872 (859181)
07-29-2019 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 697 by Phat
07-29-2019 12:26 PM


All this is essential to the topic.
And all this is essential to the topic and your position simply adds to the weight of evidence that Man Created God.
You market the God you have created.
The author of the Genesis 1 God would likely agree with you about an all powerful, all knowing, assured God but would laugh at your idea of a God who needs, wants or even bothers with any communion or contact or aid to anything created. That author created a hands off God who got it started but then retired from the game entirely.
The author of the Genesis 2&3 God would likely agree with you about the God communing with the creation and even helping the creation but had no problems imagining the God lying or cheating or being afraid or punishing the creation unjustly.
You market a God who steps in and helps individuals through difficulties, a Ganesha that is the enabler and smoother of ways.
The point is that so far all of the evidence, all of the testimony supports the answer "Man Made God".

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by Phat, posted 07-29-2019 12:26 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 701 by Phat, posted 07-29-2019 4:01 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 703 of 872 (859197)
07-29-2019 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 701 by Phat
07-29-2019 4:01 PM


Re: All this is essential to the topic.
Phat writes:
If you believe what you just said, how can you claim to be a believer?
I don't claim to be a believer; I am a believer. For example I believe the Bible actually says what is actually written in the Bible stories. I don't pretend that what is actually written is not what is actually written.
Phat writes:
If the evidence in your mind says that Man made God, why even entertain the funky rituals?
It is not the evidence of my mind but rather the very factual evidence of what has been written in the various Holy Books; the Book of the Dead; the Vedas; the Quran & Hadath; the Sutras; the Tanach, Mishnah, Talmud and Midrash; the Bible; the works of Mencius & Confucius; the Greek & Roman theologies; the Norse theologies; Raven & Coyote...
Do not all of those include Gods or Moral Pathways? Is not Theos the study of God regardless of which God is the subject?
Phat writes:
Why state that you are a member of an established club?
Why not state that I am a member of a recognized Christian Sect when the fact is that I am a member of a recognized Christian Sect?
Phat writes:
Just to get the decoder ring?
And Phat, have you not noticed yet that I don't have the decoder ring. Don't I have to ask you repeatedly "How do you know" and "What is the test you use" and still get no answers?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 701 by Phat, posted 07-29-2019 4:01 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 704 by Phat, posted 07-30-2019 8:13 AM jar has not replied
 Message 705 by Phat, posted 07-30-2019 8:18 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 706 of 872 (859250)
07-30-2019 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 705 by Phat
07-30-2019 8:18 AM


Re: All this is essential to the topic.
Phat writes:
You dont get it. A believer is a beliver in one GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen, whose Son Jesus Christ brought Holy Communion to humanity.
No Phat, you know that is simply not true.
What you are describing are what YOU believe. If you were a Muslim you would believe that Jesus was a Prophet of Allah. If you were Jewish you would believe that God had no sons and that Jesus was simply a failed Messiah.
Phat writes:
Thats a man who embraces logic, reason, and reality but who has never met God. Because he doesn't know or see how this is possible.
Quit asking others h
How would I know I had met God and not the Great Deceiver?
Phat writes:
My point is that for me at least, it is no fantasy.
How do you know it is not a fantasy?
AbE: but back to the topic. (Who started the topic and did the OP want any answer other than the one he wanted?)
The evidence still stands.
The God in Genesis 1 is described as a totally different God than the one in Genesis 2&3 and both of them would deny what you market is the real God.
What does the evidence show?
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 705 by Phat, posted 07-30-2019 8:18 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 707 by Theodoric, posted 07-30-2019 9:33 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 715 of 872 (859610)
08-02-2019 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 710 by Dredge
08-01-2019 9:45 PM


Dredge writes:
Btw, if Jesus was just a man when he was on the earth, how do you explain the following verse? We are not stoning you because of any good work but for blasphemy, but because you, a mere man, claim to be God. (John 10:33)
Easy to explain. The author of John asserts that Jesus claimed to be God. Blasphemy was a capital offense.
Yet it is still what is written in the Nicene Creed and has been included in every version since 325.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 710 by Dredge, posted 08-01-2019 9:45 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 716 by Phat, posted 08-03-2019 4:05 AM jar has replied
 Message 731 by Dredge, posted 08-05-2019 3:39 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 717 of 872 (859802)
08-03-2019 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 716 by Phat
08-03-2019 4:05 AM


Phat writes:
which leads to the question regarding whether the Nicene Creed should be given more authoritative weight than the Bible.
No, it simply points out that we should be honest about what has actually been written and admit that there are contradictions, evolution of tales and that each writing simply reflects the God the authors created.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 716 by Phat, posted 08-03-2019 4:05 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 718 by Phat, posted 08-03-2019 12:56 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 719 of 872 (859818)
08-03-2019 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 718 by Phat
08-03-2019 12:56 PM


Phat writes:
So in essence you belong to a club that sings songs and celebrates characters in a book?
No, nor has anything I have said implied such.
Phat writes:
Belief in GOD is not required?
GOD is totally irrelevant to this discussion and topic.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 718 by Phat, posted 08-03-2019 12:56 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 729 of 872 (859840)
08-03-2019 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 721 by Phat
08-03-2019 1:11 PM


Re: Is God Even Necessary?
Phat, remember that not only does the atheist population in general find they can behave morally without God, there are quite a few religions that do fine without God. Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism are three that I know I've discussed with you in the past.
So once again, the evidence shows that God is not necessary.
But the evidence goes even further and shows that in general over the recorded history it has been beliefs and allegiance to one God over some other God that has been the source of immoral behavior.
Beliefs are very powerful though and it is conceivable that for some people the belief that there is so vengeful critter that will punish them should they misbehave could lead to that individual behaving in a manner suitable for polite company. But again the evidence shows it can also and unfortunately far more often lead to great immorality, genocide, repression and evil.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 721 by Phat, posted 08-03-2019 1:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 733 of 872 (860012)
08-05-2019 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 731 by Dredge
08-05-2019 3:39 AM


Dredge writes:
jar writes:
Easy to explain. The author of John asserts that Jesus claimed to be God. Blasphemy was a capital offense.
Correct. So if Jesus claimed to be God when he was on earth, why do you claim he wasn’t?
Sorry but you are simply misrepresenting what I said and what is actually written in the Bible yet again.
The author of John asserts that the character Jesus claimed he was God. It is not even written as a first hand retelling but rather as others reporting and in significant mostly as another indicator of the change from Christianity as a Jewish sect to Christianity as a separate religion.
But as I have explained many times here at EvC, if that was true, if Jesus was God when living here on Earth, then it simply denigrates and diminishes and worth or value to Jesus life and Jesus death, Jesus resurrection and Jesus ascension.
The author of John was marketing a revisionist Jesus tale which is quite different than what is found in the other Gospels. The Jesus the author of John markets is as different from the Jesus character found in the other Gospels as the God in Genesis 1 is different than the God in Genesis 2&3.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 731 by Dredge, posted 08-05-2019 3:39 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 734 by Phat, posted 08-05-2019 10:21 AM jar has replied
 Message 751 by Dredge, posted 08-20-2019 5:03 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 735 of 872 (860050)
08-05-2019 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 734 by Phat
08-05-2019 10:21 AM


Re: Be careful what you teach.
Phat writes:
jar writes:
The author of John was marketing a revisionist Jesus tale which is quite different than what is found in the other Gospels. The Jesus the author of John markets is as different from the Jesus character found in the other Gospels as the God in Genesis 1 is different than the God in Genesis 2&3.
This is but your opinion and does nothing but reinforces your brand of secular humanist/Jewish/Episcopalian philosophy based on your own minds conclusions as to how God *must* be. Most of the "clubs" in Christianity believe (though cannot prove) that Jesus exists outside the books. Jesus is alive.
Again Phat, reality says you are wrong. The Gospels have always been divided into two groups with three called the Synoptic Gospels and John which stands separate.
This is really basic stuff Phat.
And you still have not explained what all the word salad Jesus is Alive in our Hearts spiel means or can be tested.
Sorry Phat but I am simply reporting what is actually written and you are simply selling the fantasy of the sizzle and not the reality of the steak.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 734 by Phat, posted 08-05-2019 10:21 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 738 by Phat, posted 08-12-2019 9:52 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 741 of 872 (860814)
08-12-2019 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 738 by Phat
08-12-2019 9:52 AM


Re: Be careful what you teach.
Phat, I am not preaching anything, rather I am reporting what is actually written. It seems it is not me or what I post that gets your panties in a bind but rather what is actually written in the Bible.
If anyone honestly reads Genesis 2 & 3 then they would admit that in the story the serpent tells the truth, the God lies and in fact the God character in the story even admits that the serpent told the truth and that Adam & Eve, far from falling, became more like God.
It is Jesus that says we are responsible as well as Paul and many other characters in the Bible.
And you REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY need to learn some history of Christianity.
Paul had absolutely NOTHING top do with Protestantism.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 738 by Phat, posted 08-12-2019 9:52 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 743 by Phat, posted 08-15-2019 10:37 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 745 of 872 (860994)
08-15-2019 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 743 by Phat
08-15-2019 10:37 AM


Re: Be careful what you teach.
Phat writes:
I simply cannot believe that a majority of Christian apologetics lies. More likely, you have no preconceived notions of how God should be and how the snake should be. Thus you let the text tell a different tale than the majority of apologetics tells.
No Phat, I simply point to what is actually written.
Phat writes:
I've never doubted that we are responsible. That in and of itself gives us no reason to throw away the position that God has or should have in our lives. Your position places humanity in charge of its own destiny. It was never intended to be that way.
Again, that is just word salad and unsupported assertions.
Phat writes:
Of course I knew that. And you know that I did. You just always seem to relish taking an opportunity to correct something I carelessly say as if i am stupid or ignorant. Which is a bad trait. Learn to humble yourself.
Then would it be a good idea to think before you post? Phat I can only respond to what you actually post. I'm not an apologist who will say that what you actually write is not what you actually wrote.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 743 by Phat, posted 08-15-2019 10:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 752 of 872 (861336)
08-20-2019 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 751 by Dredge
08-20-2019 5:03 AM


Dredge writes:
jar writes:
The author of John was marketing a revisionist Jesus tale which is quite different than what is found in the other Gospels
Unfortunately for your nonsense theory, Jesus is accused of blasphemy in the other three gospels as well (eg, Matt 9:2-3, Mark 2:5-7, Luke 5:20-21). So all four gospels record that Jesus claimed to be God but you claim they’re wrong and that you know better!
What sort of so-called Christian blatantly ignores all four gospels and invents his own delusionary theology? A fake Christian, of course.
But once again you are simply denying reality. The Gospel of John has always been recognozed as different than the other three Gospels which is why Mathew mark and luke are grouped as the Synoptic Gospels. Sorry but that is basic Christian history.
Yet the fact also remains that that is what is actually written in the Nicene Creed.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 751 by Dredge, posted 08-20-2019 5:03 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 753 by Dredge, posted 08-27-2019 6:06 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 754 of 872 (861798)
08-27-2019 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 753 by Dredge
08-27-2019 6:06 AM


Again, you are simply being dishonest.
All through this thread I have repeatedly pointed out that John os different and not one of the synoptic gospels.
The author of John though is trying to market a different "Jesus" than in the Synoptics; a Jesus who preforms miracles as a sign of divinity (although the Bible of course also has lots of people who are not divine performing miracles). It a definite difference in marketing.
Dredge writes:
But your claim is easily demonstrated to be nonsense by this fact: The Nicene Creed was formulated by the Catholic Church, which teaches the dogma of the Incarnation - ie, the earthly Jesus was both fully-God and fully-human.
Actually the Church in Rome was but one of the parties at the council of Nicea in 325CE.
Yet the fact remains what is actually written takes precedence over the dogma of your cult.
The Nicean Creed says that Jesus became man. All the claims of your cult cannot change the fact of what was actually written.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 753 by Dredge, posted 08-27-2019 6:06 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 755 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2019 11:31 AM jar has replied
 Message 770 by Dredge, posted 08-30-2019 3:11 AM jar has replied

  
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