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Author
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Topic: Who Made God?
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jar
Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 757 of 872 (861823)
08-27-2019 1:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 755 by AZPaul3
08-27-2019 11:31 AM
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It was catholic in the sense of inclusive just as in the "I believes" (AkA Apostles Creed); the Holy Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church is a later creation that claims through Apostolic Succession a connection to the early Christian Church. But that is a claim that is valid when speaking of ANY of the Apostolic Succession Churches including Henry's creation and all of it's chapters. Nicea was primarily a gathering to kick some factions out of the mainstream Christian communion, and the Nicean Creed was primarily designed as a political touchstone much like the KJV was designed as a political tool to try to tone down the Anti-Roman Catholic segments of the society and to establish the Divine Right of Kings to rule. Edited by jar, : see explanation of the "I believes"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 755 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2019 11:31 AM | | AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 758 by Phat, posted 08-27-2019 4:44 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 760 of 872 (861836)
08-27-2019 5:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 758 by Phat
08-27-2019 4:44 PM
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Phat writes: You basically argue that God is a product of human imagination, consensus, and mythos...whereas Faith and I would argue that God exists perfectly and impartially independent of human input. Yet again you are simply misrepresenting what I have said. You really need to stop doing that. I point out that all of the evidence shows that every God described has been the product of a human mind. It's not something I argue, it is simply reporting the facts supported by evidence. The God of Genesis 1 is described as an entirely different character than the God in Genesis 2 & 3. Sorry but that is a fact. Ganesha is different than Shiva or Indra or Vishnu. Jupiter is different than Venus. Ra is different than Seth. Odin is different than Loki. Raven is different than Coyote. That is an observation based on evidence that can be verified by anyone. In each case what is being created is a God as desired by the author. I fear that seems to bother you but don't see anyway to put it that could be honest yet make you happy.
Phat writes: I doubt whether many of those Bishops and officials walked in the Spirit on a regular basis....but then again, you will ask what this even means. Why do you think those gathered at Nicea 1 were any different than any gathering of prelates today? Does it matter whether is is a College of Cardinals or the First President and the Twelve or the General Conference or the Chapter of Monks?
Phat writes: I believe that Sproul was not simply some conman. He had a genuine love of scripture and of logic, reason, and reality but where you differ is that you are unafraid to throw God and the Holy Spirit away and just go with your reason. Again, that is simply misrepresenting my position. You really need to stop doing that. Have you and I discussed Logic, Reason AND Reality? Have you ever heard me ask "What does the evidence show?"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 758 by Phat, posted 08-27-2019 4:44 PM | | Phat has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 763 of 872 (861939)
08-29-2019 2:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 761 by Phat
08-29-2019 1:52 PM
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Re: Walking In The Spirit
Phat writes: Yes, it does. The believers gathered in the Upper Room in Acts were not simply a hodgepodge group with individual beliefs. They all walked in the Spirit. Sorry Phat but that still has no meaning whatsoever. First, there are several references to "the upper room" in Acts. So which instance? The one where Matthias was chosen and Justus rejected?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 761 by Phat, posted 08-29-2019 1:52 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 766 of 872 (861947)
08-29-2019 4:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 765 by 1.61803
08-29-2019 3:49 PM
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Perhaps surprisingly my 9th. grade English teacher at St. Paul's. It was another one of those small opuses they seemed to love assigning. He was also the one that turned several of us on to films like Orfeu Negro, Never on Sunday and Wild Strawberries.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 765 by 1.61803, posted 08-29-2019 3:49 PM | | 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 768 of 872 (861954)
08-29-2019 7:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 767 by 1.61803
08-29-2019 5:33 PM
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We tend to forget that most Christian Holy Days are simply co-opted Holy Days
We tend to forget that most Christian Holy Days are simply co-opted Holy Days that were common in other religions. Even our major Holy Days like Easter and Pentecost were just repurposed Jewish Holidays. Here is part of an adult Sunday School Class I once taught:
quote:
Easter and the Pentecost; Passover and Shavuot. Easter and Pentecost. On Easter Day we celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus and on Pentecost the arrival of the Holy Spirit. As a Jew, Jesus would have celebrated Passover and Shavuot at the same times. But what are Passover and Shavuot? Jesus had made his annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem to celebrate Passover. Passover is one of the three Pilgrimage Feasts mandated in the Torah. The other two mandated Pilgrimages are Shavuot and Sukkoth. Most of us grew up learning the stories of Exodus, how the Israelites were warned to stay inside their homes and to paint the door frame with blood so the Angel of the Lord would pass over their homes as he killed the first born son of the Egyptians. Shavuot is likely less familiar, but like the other two Pilgrimage Festivals, is related to the Exodus story. It celebrates the day that Moses was given the Torah on the Mountain of Sinai, and the day that the Jews accepted God’s Law, became a Nation of God. Like Easter, it is a movable feast and falls seven, seven day weeks after the Second Day of Passover. It is called The Feast of Counting as the Jews anticipate the days, count the days, from Passover to the day of acceptance. But how did the exact time of celebration come about? No one actually knows when the Passover happened, or when exactly Moses received the Torah, so why do we celebrate Passover, Shavuot, Easter and Pentecost at these particular times of year? Historically, Passover was celebrated with the first offerings of Barley. Wheat ripened slightly later and Shavuot was also the first offering from the Wheat harvest. The timing for these Pilgrimages corresponded to bringing the first of the harvests to the Temple, as offerings and for blessings. The Third Mandatory Pilgrimage is Sukkoth. It too is related to the Exodus and when I was growing up, one of the most fun celebrations. I grew up in an almost all Jewish neighborhood, so all my friends were Jewish. I was the Shabbat Goy, the Christian boy the orthodox Jews could call on to do things on Shabbat, turn on lights, turn on or off the stove, run errands. One advantage though was getting to celebrate Sukkoth with my friends. Sukkoth commemorates living in the desert while on the Exodus march. All the kids get to make tents from tables and we got to sleep in them and have our meals on the floor and eat with our hands and get dirty and all the things we couldn’t do at other times. But even Sukkoth is timed with the harvest. One of the traditions of Sukkoth is shaking the Four Species. The Four Species are Date Palm Fronds, Willow Branches, Myrtle and Citron, a fruit like lemons. As folk living here in the Valley know, citrus fruits are a Fall Harvest. To celebrate, you take the Date Palm Frond, some Myrtle and the Willow in the left hand, and hold the Citron in your right. As you bring the two hands together, they are blessed. You then shake them three times to each of the four corners, to North, East, South and West. The ceremony is a prayer of thanks for the year’s bounty and that there be rain enough for all the coming years’ growth. Beyond the symbolic meanings of the Exodus in Passover, Shavuot and Sukkoth, beyond the symbolic meanings of Easter and the Pentecost, there was life, and an acknowledgement of the cycles of life and the harvest.
Christianity has always adopted and repurposed most any feast or party or celebration it found in any other religion. You do not gain converts by taking away existing festivals. Christmas, Easter, Pentecost are all examples of Christianity adopting, renaming and redefining existing celebrations and framing them in a Christian mythos just as the Jewish Holidays of Passover, Shavuot and Sukkoth are repurposed harvest festivals framed in a Jewish mythos.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 767 by 1.61803, posted 08-29-2019 5:33 PM | | 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 775 of 872 (861980)
08-30-2019 7:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 770 by Dredge
08-30-2019 3:11 AM
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Yet the fact remains, that is exactly what is written in the Nicene Creed.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 770 by Dredge, posted 08-30-2019 3:11 AM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 778 by Dredge, posted 09-01-2019 5:20 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 776 of 872 (861981)
08-30-2019 7:15 AM
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Reply to: Message 773 by Dredge
08-30-2019 3:27 AM
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Dredge writes: So why do bother with what you call Christianity, if it’s all a fabrication of the human mind? While all that is in the Bible is of course the product and creation of human minds, that does not make it all a fabrication. As I have said, I am a Christian because I was raised in a Christian home, became a member of a recognized Christian Church, was educated in a Christian School and find many of the teachings, the gospel of Jesus a reasonable and practical way to live.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 773 by Dredge, posted 08-30-2019 3:27 AM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 777 by Dredge, posted 09-01-2019 5:17 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 779 of 872 (862122)
09-01-2019 7:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 778 by Dredge
09-01-2019 5:20 AM
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Yet the fact remains I am not interpreting anything but rather simply pointing out what is actually written in EVERY version of the Nicene Creed since 325CE. It's also a fact the the Bible is filled with contradicts and mutually exclusive accounts of what is said to have happened. Edited by jar, : appalin spallin
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 778 by Dredge, posted 09-01-2019 5:20 AM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 782 by Dredge, posted 09-06-2019 1:38 AM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 780 of 872 (862126)
09-01-2019 10:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 777 by Dredge
09-01-2019 5:17 AM
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Dredge writes: Well, in terms of the Bible, my idea of a fabrication is something that doesn’t come from God, but from humans. So if the entire Bible is a product of human minds, then the entire Bible is a fabrication. Nevertheless, I’m interested in which parts of the Bible you consider to be not a fabrication. None of the Bible comes from God unless the God is intentionally supplying false and misleading information. There is no other explanation possible since there are numerous examples of stories that evolve as they are retold and also examples of direct mutually exclusive accounts of supposedly the same event. Over the years I've covered many such examples here. Two clear examples are from the New Testament; the evolution of the Great Commission and the encounter of Saul on the road to Damascus. Additional evidence that the Bible is a creation of humans is the fact that there is no such thing as "The Bible" but rather a whole set of canons ranging from the smallest that contains only the first five books and none of the New Testament to the largest that contains over 80 books. But the stories in the Bible record the political, economic and religious mythos of each era. It is an anthology of anthologies. They are not fabrications even though written by humans. They are often examples of the conflicts and schisms that existed almost from the beginning between different competing versions of Judaism and later the fledgling Jews sect called Christianity.
Dredge writes: So you’re Christian on the outside, but not on the inside. In other words, like I said, you’re a fake Christian./////////// Do you believe in life after death? Yes, I do believe there is a life after death (yet another reason it is essential that Jesus was only human while living on Earth) but also understand that believe is unreasonable, irrational and illogical. It's also impossible to test and there is absolutely no evidence to support that belief. But if there is a Heaven I am very sure Christians will be a very small minority there and that there will be far more atheist, agnostics, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews. Taoists as well as followers of Confucius and Mencius in attendance.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 777 by Dredge, posted 09-01-2019 5:17 AM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 781 by Dredge, posted 09-06-2019 1:36 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 783 of 872 (862532)
09-06-2019 7:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 781 by Dredge
09-06-2019 1:36 AM
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Dredge writes: News flash!! God’s official organisation on earth - the Catholic Church - defined exactly what the Bible contains about 1500 years ago. Yet the fact remains that the Roman Catholic Canon is but one of many Canons. And the fact remains that I AM a Christian and so have no anti-Christian Phobia.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 781 by Dredge, posted 09-06-2019 1:36 AM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 791 by Dredge, posted 09-13-2019 6:04 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 792 of 872 (862835)
09-13-2019 6:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 791 by Dredge
09-13-2019 6:04 PM
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Try ethics. Who knows, you might even like it.
My pleasure. Yet the fact remains I am a Christian, Jesus was not a Christian and the Nicene Creed says what it says. AbE: Also I do not take things out of context like so many "Biblical Christians" seem to do. Why not quote the whole post?
quote:
Yet the fact remains that the Roman Catholic Canon is but one of many Canons. And the fact remains that I AM a Christian and so have no anti-Christian Phobia.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 791 by Dredge, posted 09-13-2019 6:04 PM | | Dredge has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 793 by Phat, posted 09-14-2019 4:22 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 796 of 872 (862861)
09-14-2019 4:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 793 by Phat
09-14-2019 4:22 PM
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Re: Try ethics. Who knows, you might even like it.
Phat writes: I might ask what it is about you that makes you so honest...? That's just silly Phat, what does honesty have to do with my pointing out what is actually written in the Bible Stories?
Phat writes: So it seems that when you (and to a similar degree ringo) "teach" scripture, you have it describe a different "God" than the mainstream apologists do. I don't "teach" scripture. I don't "interpret" scripture. The snake oil salesmen do those things. I simply point out what was actually written and don't deny that there are contradictions, absurdities, evolving folk tales as well as lots of mythos and ethics.
Phat writes: Dare I say that you are at odds with the global majority of those who call themselves Christians. No shit Little Beaver. Jesus was at odds with the gobal majority of those who called themselves Jews. But what is actually written rather than what do the apologist market?
Phat writes: And if so, how do we know that what you are selling (Personal Responsibility and secular humanistic do-goodedness) is the right product to be pushing? Again Phat I am not selling anything. I am simply pointing out what is actually written in the Bible and the Creeds and the Canons. The story of Joseph is a great example and it's from Genesis, the very beginnings of the Bible. Who filled the granaries? Who grew the food? Who preserved the meats? Who built the graneries themselves?
Phat writes: Point blank question: Was Jesus God? We've been over that before Phat, many times. If Jesus was more than simply human while living here on Earth then the whole play is simply a worthless farce and conjob.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 793 by Phat, posted 09-14-2019 4:22 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 797 by Phat, posted 09-15-2019 1:27 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 801 of 872 (862884)
09-15-2019 4:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 797 by Phat
09-15-2019 1:27 PM
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Re: Try ethics. Who knows, you might even like it.
Phat writes: You are attempting to market an idea and ideology. Freedom of speech allows this, thank God. I get a little terse with you because you frame your arguments with personal jibes such as "Learn To Read" and "Have You Ever Read The Bible"? Yet those are still unanswered questions. I simply point out what the Bible actually says or what is actually written in the Creeds or ask what the actual evidence shows. In each case it is not anything I am marketing; it is simply what the Bible actually says, what is actually written in the Creeds, what the evidence actually shows. There is no idea or ideology involved. I am marketing nothing. I am telling you to read the label instead of just believing me. Look at what is on the ingredients list.
Phat writes: But I wont let you get away with the argument that you are not selling anything. You are engaged in a full-on attack on Biblical Christianity. That's silly Phat. If telling folk to read what is actually written in the Bible or in the creeds or to look and see what the evidence shows attacks Biblical Christianity it is not I who is attacking but rather the Bible and the Creeds and reality that are the threat to Biblical Christianity.
Phat writes: In a way, you are marketing the basic idea that the best Jews are those who live a secular life, do good at every opportunity (as their Rabbi Jesus taught) and don't bother getting to know God except by doing good deeds every day and living like Gods people. Then support that charge. Point out where I said anything about what the best Jews are. Are Christians not supposed to be living like Gods people? Are we not supposed to do good deeds? When I post something related to the Bible is what is actually written in support of what I claim? Remember Phat, everyone on here has the ability to check what I say is written in the Bible against what is actually written in the Bible. What does the evidence show? Edited by jar, : appalin spallin Is--->If. Edited by jar, : clarify reading labels versus listening to the sales pitch.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 797 by Phat, posted 09-15-2019 1:27 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 814 of 872 (862971)
09-17-2019 7:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 811 by Faith
09-17-2019 3:49 PM
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It was the Protestant Evangelical Christians in German that supported Hitler
Reality Faith. It was the Deutsche Christen movement, Evangelical Protestant Christians that were major supporters of Hitler and who campaigned for Hitler and aligned the German Evangelical Protestant Christian Church in support of the anti-semitism, racism of the Nazi party.
1933 Luther Day Speech by Bishop Hosenfelder Edited by jar, : left a t out Edited by jar, : put a the in put your left foot in put your left foot out ... Edited by jar, : fix flag Edited by jar, : again Edited by jar, : slow
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 811 by Faith, posted 09-17-2019 3:49 PM | | Faith has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 817 of 872 (862975)
09-17-2019 9:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 816 by Faith
09-17-2019 9:09 PM
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Re: It was LIBERAL Protestants in German that supported Hitler
Evidence Faith, evidence. It was still Protestant EVANGELICAL Christians that were supporting the Nazis and were Nazis, and Nazism/Fascism are Conservative not Liberal organizations just as today's US Fascists are Conservatives. AbE: you need to stop making God and Christianity in YOUR image. Edited by jar, : see AbE:
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 816 by Faith, posted 09-17-2019 9:09 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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