Who Made God?

Speaking from your POV, the Episcopalians have a shot at escaping the cultural dogma. My ongoing question, (which would make a good topic) is this: Is God even necessary? Stile claims He isnt. I maintain that He is, for I need His Spirit to counter my natural tendencies towards greed, pride, and selfishness.

That seems to be a running theme with some believers: that they'd be thieves, rapists, murderers, etc. if they didn't have God telling them not to. Unfortunately, the idea is reinforced by false doctrines like "the Fall", which is equivalent to "the devil made me do it".

If that’s what it takes to keep society free of your all too human weaknesses then have at it. Most of the rest of us will just be normal human beings trying to get by without hurting others while sharing some good times along the way.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

So you are telling me that you don't have issues with greed, pride, lust, or substance abuse? You claim to willingly slang about spare change but is it truly to help others or does it buy friends...drinking buddies even...who might lend a helping hand to you at a later date? If so, do you have any problem with humans acting humanly? Fine so far. Now lets bring religion into it.Do you have a problem with those professing organized religion in Saskatchewan? If so, tell us the stories. Where do they fall short in ways that you secular humanists do not?

What makes you think I differ from that? That's basically what I do. I dont "preach" to anyone except informally as Thugpreacha Online...and that's just to vent.One thing we atheists and believers do to each other is stereotype each other.

The point, Thug, is that it isn't any god making you a decent human being. It is you.

I can accept your point of view. It is, after all, based on known evidence. And in the other thread you mention all of the negatives associated with belief and with a hypothetical Creator Itself, should One exist. But how do you know that human perception may not be altered? I suppose the next question will be to demand evidence.

Evidence already abounds. We suck at perceptions. That is why objective evidence is vital to explain and understand *anything*.

Phat, remember that not only does the atheist population in general find they can behave morally without God, there are quite a few religions that do fine without God. Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism are three that I know I've discussed with you in the past.So once again, the evidence shows that God is not necessary.But the evidence goes even further and shows that in general over the recorded history it has been beliefs and allegiance to one God over some other God that has been the source of immoral behavior.Beliefs are very powerful though and it is conceivable that for some people the belief that there is so vengeful critter that will punish them should they misbehave could lead to that individual behaving in a manner suitable for polite company. But again the evidence shows it can also and unfortunately far more often lead to great immorality, genocide, repression and evil.

That isn't what I said, is it? What I said, basically, is that I get the same results without God as you get with God - so is God necessary in the equation at all? I don't recall ever getting anything back from strangers I have helped. Maybe they'll "pay it forward" to somebody else some day. Whether it's "real help" or not is similarly impossible to predict. As I've said before, most of the people I know profess organized religion. Everybody falls short. The question here is why do the religionists "need God" to help them keep up with the secular humanists?

Correct. So if Jesus claimed to be God when he was on earth, why do you claim he wasn’t?

Without objective evidence why should we believe him?Without objective evidence, if he even existed at all, he was just another Jim Jones/David Koresh type delusional megalomaniac.

Sorry but you are simply misrepresenting what I said and what is actually written in the Bible yet again.The author of John asserts that the character Jesus claimed he was God. It is not even written as a first hand retelling but rather as others reporting and in significant mostly as another indicator of the change from Christianity as a Jewish sect to Christianity as a separate religion.But as I have explained many times here at EvC, if that was true, if Jesus was God when living here on Earth, then it simply denigrates and diminishes and worth or value to Jesus life and Jesus death, Jesus resurrection and Jesus ascension.The author of John was marketing a revisionist Jesus tale which is quite different than what is found in the other Gospels. The Jesus the author of John markets is as different from the Jesus character found in the other Gospels as the God in Genesis 1 is different than the God in Genesis 2&3.

This is but your opinion and does nothing but reinforces your brand of secular humanist/Jewish/Episcopalian philosophy based on your own minds conclusions as to how God *must* be. Most of the "clubs" in Christianity believe (though cannot prove) that Jesus exists outside the books. Jesus is alive. No. It simply forces you to consider that just maybe not all of the apologists are conmen and liars. It is clearly evident how much influence the Judaism and common sense of your Mother, combined with Socratic thinking teachers who embraced all religions as human cultural constructs and did not teach jesus as eternally living in our hearts shaped what you stubbornly defend to be your brand of Christianity. In my opinion, you do both harm and good. You do good through what you teach by forcing your students to think about personal responsibility and your basic message that says that the *evidence* shpws that the God of the Bible was simply an evolving human construct and that Jesus was simply human. Kudos for a secular humanist hero. Yes, we are all called to be responsible...but sadly you do harm by not teaching that we humans can only succeed by being in Christ. You teach that everyone is saved. In a sense, you teach that we all are chosen and saved as long as we respond to the teachings of a human teacher. And that GOD is eternally unknowable.I don't wish the last days on anyone. I am in fact convinced that if the world suffers a major period of war and unrest it will be our fault and not the fault of any devil or demon.

Again Phat, reality says you are wrong. The Gospels have always been divided into two groups with three called the Synoptic Gospels and John which stands separate.This is really basic stuff Phat.And you still have not explained what all the word salad Jesus is Alive in our Hearts spiel means or can be tested.Sorry Phat but I am simply reporting what is actually written and you are simply selling the fantasy of the sizzle and not the reality of the steak.