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Author
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Topic: Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 152 of 563 (915311)
02-12-2024 4:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 140 by PaulK
02-12-2024 2:43 PM
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There is no evidence for Christianity prior to evidence of Paul's writings.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 140 by PaulK, posted 02-12-2024 2:43 PM | | PaulK has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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We had this discussion here almost twenty years ago. Here is a post that addresses the lack of evidence. I highly recommend the whole thread. https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=page&t=8000&mlist...
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Why should we be discussing a Jesus that is not Jesus. If he isn't named Jesus di nothing the fictional character did and no one remembers him. Then he isn't the basis for Jesus. Anyone in the Levant said anything mystical or rebelled a little bit against the Jewish hierarchy or Rome could be a model. A composite of thousands of people. I am gobsmacked how you can conceive that there could be a person that had nothing in common with Jesus could have been the "real" Jesus. Was he an itinerant preacher or not? Was he a freedom fighter or not? Did he have a group of followers or not? Did he make a procession into Jerusalem or not? Was he executed or not? If there can be no consensus on what a "historical jesus" was like how do we search for him?
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 167 of 563 (915372)
02-13-2024 10:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 163 by AZPaul3
02-12-2024 11:36 PM
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but there is no evidence for any of this. The only person in that period claiming to persecute christians is Saul. There is no record of this any where else. We can accept authorship without accepting what the author claims. I can list thousands of examples of this. Using this logic we should also accept that this Jesus character came to America. Also, we know nothing about this Paul other than what he wrote. Yes there seems there was a Paul, but who was he. There is no evidence of a church before Paul. We don't even know who these people were. We don't know what there beliefs were. We know nothing other than what Paul wrote. Find some corroborating evidence and I might consider the idea. History does not rely on one source. If there is one source it is extremely doubtful to be accurate.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 163 by AZPaul3, posted 02-12-2024 11:36 PM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 168 of 563 (915373)
02-13-2024 10:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 164 by PaulK
02-13-2024 12:40 AM
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Show evidence. Show something from the historical record. Anything.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 164 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 12:40 AM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 173 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 12:24 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 170 of 563 (915381)
02-13-2024 11:10 AM
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Reply to: Message 169 by Tangle
02-13-2024 10:50 AM
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Exactly. I have asked many times for someone to present contemporary, historical evidence for the existence of Jesus or the person they want him to be modeled after. If there can be no agreement on whether he was a rebel, minister, magician, charlatan, there can be no precursor jesus was modeled on.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 169 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2024 10:50 AM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 171 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2024 11:47 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 185 of 563 (915406)
02-13-2024 2:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 171 by Tangle
02-13-2024 11:47 AM
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Correct. John the Baptist shows up in all extant copies of Antiquities by Josephus. Jesus only shows up in much later copies. There is no historical evidence for Moses.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 171 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2024 11:47 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 187 of 563 (915408)
02-13-2024 2:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 173 by PaulK
02-13-2024 12:24 PM
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If you think there was some Jesus dude walking around and he started a religion, was his name Jesus? What was his name?
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 173 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 12:24 PM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 191 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 2:52 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 195 of 563 (915417)
02-13-2024 3:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 183 by PaulK
02-13-2024 2:19 PM
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There is no historical evidence for a historical Jesus. Zero, none, nada, zilch.
But I’ve yet to see any really good arguments for a purely mythical Jesus - although I have seen some appallingly bad ones.
Then you either are not looking hard or have no interest in actually finding any. Here are a couple easy to read examinations of a historical Jesus by an actual historian. Amazon.comAmazon.comThere are also peer reviewed scholarly articles and books. For example, Richard Carrier. Care to examine the 10 myths?
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 183 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 2:19 PM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 200 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 3:25 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 196 of 563 (915418)
02-13-2024 3:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 180 by PaulK
02-13-2024 1:54 PM
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Who wrote the Gospels?
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 180 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 1:54 PM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 201 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 3:26 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 197 of 563 (915419)
02-13-2024 3:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 191 by PaulK
02-13-2024 2:52 PM
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I have no idea what you are trying to ask.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 191 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 2:52 PM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 199 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 3:23 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 202 of 563 (915424)
02-13-2024 3:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 199 by PaulK
02-13-2024 3:23 PM
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No. His name could have been Ralph. My point is how do we decide someone was the basis of Jesus if he has none of the characteristics of Jesus. The point you are trying to make is petty and sophomoric, but then again people get that way when they think their beliefs are threatened.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 199 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 3:23 PM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 205 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 3:48 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 203 of 563 (915426)
02-13-2024 3:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 201 by PaulK
02-13-2024 3:26 PM
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So anonymous people? No sources? No idea if what is regarded as the Gospels are original or changed or manipulated through the years? Did these anonymous authors right anything else? Why should we trust anything in the Gospels if we have no idea who wrote them, and we can objectively show that parts of them are wrong?
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 201 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 3:26 PM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 204 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 3:44 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 206 of 563 (915429)
02-13-2024 3:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 204 by PaulK
02-13-2024 3:44 PM
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yes they are completely worthless as evidence. There is nothing that corroborates them. We have no idea who wrote them. We only know an approximation of when. A source cannot be self verifying. There needs to be another source to corroborate before it can be considered as evidence. The Bible cannot be used as evidence for Jesus as that is the only original source for information on the Jesus dude.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 204 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 3:44 PM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 208 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 3:58 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
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Message 207 of 563 (915430)
02-13-2024 3:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 205 by PaulK
02-13-2024 3:48 PM
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Who us he? What are some of the characteristics? Was he a pacifist preacher or a revolutionary? Was he venerated at birth? Was he executed? If so how? Is only part if the story myth? Where do we draw the line?
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 205 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 3:48 PM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 209 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 4:00 PM | | Theodoric has replied | | | Message 226 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2024 5:06 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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