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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman
ICANT
Member (Idle past 111 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 226 of 563 (915450)
02-13-2024 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Theodoric
02-13-2024 3:55 PM


Hi Theo,
Theodoric writes:
Who us he? What are some of the characteristics? Was he a pacifist preacher or a revolutionary? Was he venerated at birth? Was he executed? If so how? Is only part if the story myth? Where do we draw the line?
Theodoric writes:
Who us he?
I am assuming you are asking 'who is Jesus'?
Emmanuel.
Theodoric writes:
What are some of the characteristics?
He was perfect.
Theodoric writes:
Was he a pacifist preacher or a revolutionary?
For the most part he was a pacifist preacher. He fed the hungry, healed the sick, blind, and lame but on one occasion He ran the money changers out of the Temple because they had made it a den of thieves.
Theodoric writes:
Was he venerated at birth?
I don't know if I understand the question you intended, but I will answer it as asked.
No spirit emerges, there was no cosmic dance of stardust and dreams, In the quiet of dawn, and no whispered secrets, and no promises etched in the fabric of existence. His birth was announced to the Shepards in the fields keeping their sheep.
Theodoric writes:
Was he executed?
Yes.
evidence
quote:
The Annals
BOOK
BOOK XV A.D. 62-65
By Tacitus
A Roman Historian
Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most
exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.
Theodoric writes:
If so how?
The first bolded enlarged type above.
The Roman extreme penalty was crucifixion.
Theodoric writes:
Is only part if the story myth?
None is a myth I gave you a historical record of what happened.
Theodoric writes:
Where do we draw the line?
At the evidence.
If you don't like it that is your problem, not mine.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Theodoric, posted 02-13-2024 3:55 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Theodoric, posted 02-13-2024 5:20 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 111 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 232 of 563 (915461)
02-13-2024 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Theodoric
02-13-2024 5:20 PM


Hi Theo,
Theodoric writes:
Tacitus was addressed and dismissed here almost 20 years ago.
You guys can dismiss any thing that that don't fit your narrative. But that don't erase it from History.
I dismissed the BBT 70 years ago so what?
Theodoric writes:
Roughly 80 years after the alleged events
Are you telling me that I could not take the records of the history of Taylor county that was written 1n 1940 and write a book and give a perfect account of an event happened in 1930? I have had a copy of those events since 1950.
What do you think Historians do?
Theodoric writes:
* Tacitus uses the term "procurator",
Are you really that dumb?
Tacitus did not write in English
The Annals, authored by the Roman historian and senator Tacitus, was written in Latin. This historical work covers the period from the reign of Tiberius (beginning in AD 14) to that of Nero (ending in AD 68). Tacitus meticulously chronicled the events and political complexities of the Roman Empire during the first century AD. His Latin prose style is renowned for its precision and resonance, making The Annals a significant source for understanding Roman history during that era.
The English word "procurator" did not exist until the 13th century.
Theodoric writes:
Tacitus names the person as "Christ",
The translators used that word but Tacitus didn't because the word Christ did not exist until the 14th century.
Theodoric writes:
* Tacitus accepts the recent advent of Christianity,
How? The word “Christianity” did not exist until the 13th century.
[qs=it is not evidence of a historical Jesus based on earlier Roman records,
but merely a few details which Tacitus gathered from Christian stories circulating in his time.
Why did Tacitus, a Roman historian and Roman Official equal to our senators have to depend on what some one wrote as he had access to government records?
Pliny the Younger, the Roman governor of Bithynia and Pontus wrote to Emperor Trajan around AD 110 about how to handle the cristos's who would not worship the Roman Gods.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Theodoric, posted 02-13-2024 5:20 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Theodoric, posted 02-13-2024 8:14 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied
 Message 248 by Tangle, posted 02-14-2024 3:23 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 111 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 254 of 563 (915494)
02-14-2024 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Tangle
02-14-2024 3:23 AM


Hi Tangle,
Tangle writes:
You do know that we don't have Tacitus's original manuscript for the *Annals*
Yes, and if I did I couldn't read it as it was written in Latin
Tangle writes:
It would be stories that he heard from Christians.
Are you telling me that a man that was writing the History of the Roman Empire who was in a government position equal to our senators was going around talking to people the government was killing because they would not worship the Roman Gods. I really don't think they would even let him know they were a follower of Christ as they would have ended up dead.
Tangle writes:
The 'Christ' mention is a later addition, an interpolation or, to be more blunt, a forgery added by Christians in an attempt to make their claim for Jesus's existence more credible.
When would Christians have had access to these Annals?
EVIDENCE that such happened please.
Tangle writes:
All that is quite separate from the fact that Tacitus was writing non-contemporaneously.
He was not writing a novel or a story book. He was writing the History of the Roman Empire from AD 14 through AD 66.
Tangle writes:
His information even if he had it was hearsay
Being a Historian and a government official why would he need hearsay information when he would have had total access to the official government documents?
Tangle writes:
It would be stories that he heard from Christians.
Why would Christians even look at him much less talk to him. Pliney was killing people just because he thought they were Christians at that time.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Tangle, posted 02-14-2024 3:23 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Dr Jack, posted 02-14-2024 8:35 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 261 by Tangle, posted 02-14-2024 11:03 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 111 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 314 of 563 (915593)
02-15-2024 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by Taq
02-15-2024 11:45 AM


Re: A Brief Word For Theo
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
One of the concepts that first made me doubt my beliefs was the question of what I would believe if I had been born elsewhere. If I was born in Iran would I be Muslim? Probably. If I was born in India would I be Hindu? Probably. It seemed to me that the truth of religious belief shouldn't be based on where you are born. That made me doubt all supernatural claims made by religions.
Lets assume for a moment that the Bible is true. I know that is hard for you to do but just give it a try.
God started with a male and a female only two people so there would only be one religion all religions started from that one religion. That tells me that mankind is responsible for starting all religions but one.
So as people got scattered out along comes the devil and starts getting people to believe different things. The people then teach their children those things and mold them into their particular belief.
I have friends that were raised Hindu but today they are born again children of God. I have friends who was raised Muslim and are now born again children of God. I have a lot of friends who were raised Communist but are now born again children of God. I have friends that their parents died atheist but they are now born again children of God.
So it does not make any difference where you are born. It only makes a difference who you listen too and follow. The Holy Spirit is everywhere and He can convince anyone who will listen to Him. He is that still small voice that speaks to you from inside your mind.
If you want to know the truth you have got to want it and seek after it and you will find it. Just be careful which spirit you follow.
You have a blessed Day today,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by Taq, posted 02-15-2024 11:45 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Taq, posted 02-15-2024 1:13 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 316 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 1:35 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 333 by Theodoric, posted 02-15-2024 10:46 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 111 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 317 of 563 (915597)
02-15-2024 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Tangle
02-15-2024 3:25 AM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
Hi Charley,
Tangle writes:
Well of course it's not a coincidence. Nor is it a coincidence that the scholars writing about Jesus as a real person are (almost) all believers and usually also theologians.
That is like saying it is not a coincidence that everyone who writes about the BBT are the scientist that believe in the BBT. When they can not produce one shred of evidence that is the way the universe began to exist from non existence.
I assume God exists and created the heavens and the earth.
The scientist assumes that somehow the universe began to exist and since it does exist what he believes happened the way he believes it did.
Now explain to me how your assumption is better than mine?
At least I have a source for the energy and matter to create the universe as well to sustain it and hold it together.
The only answer I get from scientist is we don't know!
If you know the answer to how the universe began to exist when there was an absence of existence please share.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 3:25 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Taq, posted 02-15-2024 1:40 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 319 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 1:42 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 111 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 320 of 563 (915601)
02-15-2024 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Tangle
02-15-2024 1:35 PM


Re: A Brief Word For Theo
Hi Charley,
Tangle writes:
The probability of being born and baptised Christian in the USA is between 65 and 75%.

The probability of being born and baptised Christian in Iran is less than 1%
You can't be baptized a christian. You have to be born again and live a life like Christ to be a Christian. I doubt very seriously that even 4% of Americans are Christians.
Is that God's fault?
Or is it because of what the parents have taught their children?
The sins of the parents gets handed down to their children.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 1:35 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 2:14 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 111 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 322 of 563 (915606)
02-15-2024 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by Tangle
02-15-2024 1:42 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
Hi Charley,
Tangle writes:
Historians study the historicity of the bible it is not a requirement of historians to believe in the superstitions of the ancient peoples they study.
You and no Atheist here believe what historians say about Jesus.
You and the others pick and choose who you will believe according to whether it fits your narrative or not.
You don't believe what a Roman historian said about Pilate crucifying Jesus.
Historians are the people who translated the Annals not theologians.
I notice you could come up for the waste my bulls used to excrete without one word about what you quoted I said.
Do you have an answer for how the universe began to exist in/from non existence?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 1:42 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 3:13 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 325 by Taq, posted 02-15-2024 4:14 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 111 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 323 of 563 (915610)
02-15-2024 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by Tangle
02-15-2024 2:14 PM


Re: A Brief Word For Theo
Hi Charley,
Tangle writes:
Ha, and now it's the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Only you know what a Christian is eh? Only 4% of Americans are your type of Christian - this Holy Spirit really is utterly crap at his job isn't he?
I didn't say they didn't think they were christians they do. In fact I have had people tell me they were christians because they were born in America, my mother and father was christians, I am a christian because I was baptized by a church, and the list goes on.
A person is a Christian because they have been born again and are living a life like Jesus did.
I don't even claim to be a Christian as I have not always done what He wanted me to do. I do claim to be a born again child of the King saved by His Grace which I don't deserve.
Now when I read some of the things you and others call and say to religious folks I believe you think they are all a bunch of hypocrites, because they claim to be something they are not. I also believe they are a bunch of hypocrites.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 2:14 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 111 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 326 of 563 (915630)
02-15-2024 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Taq
02-15-2024 1:40 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
Hi Taq,
Taq]No assumption is being made. It is a conclusion based on objective evidence.
Assumptions are necessary.
Where did the Universe come from?
Scientific answer is we don't know.
Where did the energy and matter come from to furnish the universe with the billions of galaxies that have been discovered?
Scientific answer is that little point or pea sized universe that we assume existed a fraction of a second after Time did not exist, T=0.
If those two things are not assumptions what are they?
If they are not assumptions please enlighten me as to their origin.
As far as any evidence you have I think I have equal or better evidence for.
Taq writes:
There are multiple, independent lines of evidence supporting the BBT:
Evidence for the Big Bang | The Schools' Observatory
Lets examine the independent lines of supporting evidence!
1. Redshift of Galaxies.
quote:
The light we observe from galaxies has been stretched by the time it reaches us. It looks redder than it should. This redshift is the result of galaxies moving away from us.
Yes God stretched out the universe and is still doing so which causes the redshift which tells me the universe is expanding.
They didn't mention that we also have some blueshift of several Galaxies that tells me everything did not have its's beginning with that little pea sized universe as it expanded in every direction at once.
So here is a place that the universe says it did not take place as you think it did.
Just one little proof that God is in control not mankind.
2. Microwave Background.
quote:
A long, long time ago, the whole Universe was very hot. As it grew in the size, the heat left a "glow" which fills the entire Universe.
Yes an eternity ago God started arranging everything from some of the energy that was available to Him in the first light period. I don't know how hot pure energy would be, as no one knows. I am sure it would be as hot as that little pea sized universe was said to be, maybe even hotter.
And yes it would produce the same Microwave Background.
3. Mixture of Elements.
Yes they had to begin to exist somewhere in the creation event as did everything else. God had an eternity to create the heavens and earth in.
4. Looking back in time.
You can't look back in time as time did not exist until mankind created the concept of time to be able to measure the duration between events in existence.
So when you look back into existence you have no way of measuring it. Existence just is.
You got anything else?
God Bless.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Taq, posted 02-15-2024 1:40 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Taq, posted 02-15-2024 5:00 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 111 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 327 of 563 (915631)
02-15-2024 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by Taq
02-15-2024 4:14 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
Christians converting to those religions based on those facts.
But you see people converting to their beliefs.
I saw Jim Jones, but I did not follow him either.
I talk to Taq and I am not going to follow him either.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Taq, posted 02-15-2024 4:14 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Taq, posted 02-15-2024 5:03 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 111 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 329 of 563 (915633)
02-15-2024 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by Tangle
02-15-2024 3:13 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
Hi Charley,
Tangle writes:
Why do you keep asking the same questions,
Because you never answer them.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 3:13 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 5:18 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 111 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 332 of 563 (915644)
02-15-2024 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Tangle
02-15-2024 5:18 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
Hi Charley,
Tangle writes:
They've been answered dozens of times. If you want to discuss the origins of the universe (again) I suggest you start another thread on it or re-start many of the existing ones.
We don't know yet is not an answer, it is a cop out.
Why would we need another thread as this is as good as any thread as we are talking about His existence.
Tangle writes:
Meanwhile, why are you trying to change the subject? This thread is about the existence or otherwise of Jesus.
I am not trying to change the subject.
If He did not exist He could not create the universe.
If He did create the universe I should have the opportunity to show His existence by giving the universe as proof of His existence. That is what I am doing.
You don't like it then show me He did not create the universe by answering my questions. It is just that easy.
The way you can make assertions it should not take even 10 minutes to prove Jesus did not exist.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Tangle, posted 02-15-2024 5:18 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by Tangle, posted 02-16-2024 2:53 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 336 by Admin, posted 02-16-2024 6:28 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 337 by AZPaul3, posted 02-16-2024 7:57 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 111 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 334 of 563 (915647)
02-16-2024 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 328 by Taq
02-15-2024 5:00 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
We don't need to know where the universe came from in order to conclude that the universe began as a dense region of energy that expanded outwards.
You do if you want to prove that Jesus did not create the universe and everything that is in it. If you did that, you would prove He did not exist.
Taq writes:
In the same way, we don't need to know where energy and matter came from in order to understand how clouds form. You might as well claim that germs causing disease is an assumption because we don't know where the energy for the universe came from.
You do if you want to prove that Jesus did not create the universe and everything that is in it. If you did that, you would prove He did not exist.
Taq writes:
I suppose God also causes clouds and infections?
Clouds are created evaporation and since the air can only hold so much vapor when it reaches the saturation point and the temperature and atmospheric pressure gets just right condensation takes place and the water returns to where it came from.
There is 6 types of clouds and they are:
Cumulus: Fluffy and cotton-like, often seen on sunny days.
Cirrus: Thin, wispy clouds at high altitudes.
Stratus: Layered and gray, often associated with overcast skies.
Nimbus: Rain-bearing clouds.
Cumulonimbus: Towering, thunderstorm clouds.
Nimbostratus: Thick, gray clouds that bring steady rain.
That covers the clouds Now to the second part of that question of infections.
I suppose you would like to blame Jesus For that as all evil on earth.
He is not the cause of bad things. The man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 is the guilty party. Because he chose to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and sin entered into the universe causing Jesus to put a curse on the entire universe.
So don't blame God/Jesus/Holy Spirit for problems you have, if you have to blame somebody to make you feel better about it just put the blame where it is supposed to be on the first man.
Taq writes:
Yes, there are blue shifted galaxies that are part of our local galaxy cluster due to the fact that we are all orbiting around a shared barycenter. The redshift is for galaxies that aren't gravitationally bound to the Milky Way or our galaxy cluster.
According to Bang theory. When the universe was just 10^-34 of a second old—yes, that’s a hundredth of a billionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a second in age—it experienced an incredible burst of expansion known as inflation. During this cosmic sprint, space itself expanded faster than the speed of light. Imagine the universe doubling in size at least 90 times, going from subatomic-sized to golf-ball-sized almost instantaneously!
Expanding at the speed of light of 186,000 miles per second in every direction: In 1 second the universe was 372,000 miles in diameter.
In 1 minute the universe was 22,320,000 miles in diameter.
In 1 hour the universe was 1,339,200,000 miles in diameter.
In 1 day the universe was 32,140,800,000 miles in diameter.
In 1 year the universe was 11,731,392,000,000 miles in diameter.
In 1000 years the universe was 1.1731392e+16 miles in diameter.
In 3800000 years the universe was 4.45792896e+21miles in diameter.
That tells me there is an empty volume of space at the center of the universe where nothing exists as everything inside that space is 4.45792896e+21 miles apart at that point in time. that is a pretty good size hole in the center of the universe. The reason that hole is that big is that everything that existed in the pea sized universe had expanded away from that point leaving nothing behind.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by Taq, posted 02-15-2024 5:00 PM Taq has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 111 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 440 of 563 (915909)
02-20-2024 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 428 by Percy
02-19-2024 6:01 PM


Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
certainly no consensus among Jesus scholars about the historical Jesus.
How long has it been since you checked on a consensus among Jesus scholars?
Just wondering.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 428 by Percy, posted 02-19-2024 6:01 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 111 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 442 of 563 (915913)
02-20-2024 11:28 AM


Historical Jesus
To whom it may concern!
You guys seem to use Wikipedia a lot
I found this there: Historical Jesus - Wikipedia
quote:
The term "historical Jesus" refers to the life and teachings of Jesus as interpreted through critical historical methods, in contrast to what are traditionally religious interpretations.[1][2] It also considers the historical and cultural contexts in which Jesus lived.[3][4][5][6] Virtually all scholars of antiquity accept that Jesus was a historical figure, and the idea that Jesus was a mythical figure has been consistently rejected by the scholarly consensus as a fringe theory.[7][8][9][10][11] Scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the biblical accounts, with only two events being supported by nearly universal scholarly consensus: Jesus was baptized and Jesus was crucified.[1
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

  
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