Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,832 Year: 4,089/9,624 Month: 960/974 Week: 287/286 Day: 8/40 Hour: 0/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 133 of 563 (915281)
02-12-2024 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Percy
02-12-2024 10:56 AM


The facts I cited were
we don’t know when or where Jesus was born, nor do we know much of his ancestry.
I don’t think we disagree on those.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Percy, posted 02-12-2024 10:56 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Percy, posted 02-12-2024 11:04 AM PaulK has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 140 of 563 (915297)
02-12-2024 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Percy
02-12-2024 2:22 PM


quote:
For the Jesus of the New Testament I would expect a great deal of evidence, and you apparently agree that there was never any such Jesus. I wouldn't expect any evidence, or at least very, very little, for "an obscure religious mystic."

The New Testament is going to be about as reliable as an official Scientology biography of L Ron Hubbard.
quote:
I think Paul created Christianity. He might have made Jesus up out of whole cloth, or he might have based him upon a real person. I wouldn't venture a guess which and I don't think it matters.
Paul may have reshaped Christianity, but he’s clear that it existed in some form before he joined it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Percy, posted 02-12-2024 2:22 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Percy, posted 02-12-2024 3:36 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 152 by Theodoric, posted 02-12-2024 4:02 PM PaulK has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 149 of 563 (915308)
02-12-2024 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Percy
02-12-2024 3:36 PM


quote:
According to the New Testament.

According to his own writings - which are included in the New Testament.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Percy, posted 02-12-2024 3:36 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Percy, posted 02-12-2024 3:58 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 153 of 563 (915312)
02-12-2024 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by AZPaul3
02-12-2024 3:46 PM


quote:
The books of the new testament that are Paul's letters to various congregations, is there any debate of their authenticity?
Oh there’s debate but most of those are accepted as genuine.
Of those addressed to people, only Philemon is accepted as genuine. 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus are almost certainly not genuine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by AZPaul3, posted 02-12-2024 3:46 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 154 of 563 (915314)
02-12-2024 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Percy
02-12-2024 3:58 PM


quote:
Which is where Paul's writings can be found and which you just called unreliable.
Well, there goes your hope of being thought sensible.
The New Testament is not reliable on the subject of Jesus - and that certainly includes the Pauline Epistles. But that doesn’t mean that it’s wrong on everything. Paul’s claim that he persecuted the early Christians before his conversion may well be exaggerated, but hardly makes sense if there were no Christians to be persecuted. Likewise his reported dealings with the Jerusalem Church are no sense unless the recipients knew of the people involved.
So, no. The evidence that there was some sort of Christian church prior to Paul’s involvement seems pretty solid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Percy, posted 02-12-2024 3:58 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Percy, posted 02-13-2024 9:16 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 164 of 563 (915363)
02-13-2024 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Theodoric
02-12-2024 9:27 PM


quote:
Why should we be discussing a Jesus that is not Jesus. If he isn't named Jesus di nothing the fictional character did and no one remembers him. Then he isn't the basis for Jesus.
Because he likely is “named Jesus” in the sense that matters and is the basis for the Jesus of the Gospels. Why is it necessary to dismiss such a possibility out of hand?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Theodoric, posted 02-12-2024 9:27 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Theodoric, posted 02-13-2024 10:22 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 166 of 563 (915370)
02-13-2024 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Percy
02-13-2024 9:16 AM


You made yourself the subject in Message 336

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Percy, posted 02-13-2024 9:16 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Percy, posted 02-13-2024 12:53 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 173 of 563 (915390)
02-13-2024 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Theodoric
02-13-2024 10:22 AM


quote:
Show evidence. Show something from the historical record. Anything
Tell me then what you mean when you say that he wasn’t called Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Theodoric, posted 02-13-2024 10:22 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Theodoric, posted 02-13-2024 2:37 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 174 of 563 (915392)
02-13-2024 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Tangle
02-13-2024 11:47 AM


It’s not surprising that John the Baptist has more evidence, being more successful than a historical Jesus actually would have been.
Moses may be fictional - the Exodus story is more fiction than fact, perhaps a complete fiction, or nearly so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2024 11:47 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2024 1:00 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 177 of 563 (915398)
02-13-2024 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Tangle
02-13-2024 1:00 PM


quote:
That's a tautology isn't it? JtB is more successful historically than JC because we have more evidence for him.

Not entirely. After all the synoptic Gospels imply a very short career for Jesus as a preacher. Even the Gospels admit that Jesus came to John for baptism. And of course there is no problem with proposing that Jesus was far less successful than the Gospels say - we’d expect exaggeration there.
quote:
But JtB didn't perform miracles or rise from the dead - yet he has more historicity than JC who did?
Of course Jesus didn’t do those things either (And have you sought 915278 out the stories told by John’s followers? Can you say that they did not credit him with any miracles?)
quote:
He didn't actually exist did he? No evidence at all.
It’s hard to say. How do we tell the difference between pure fiction and fiction with some historical basis? And how do we say what was and was not part of that basis without evidence? The expulsion of the Hyksos was real - and maybe one of the inspirations for the Exodus story. Or maybe not. We can’t tell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2024 1:00 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2024 1:44 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 178 of 563 (915399)
02-13-2024 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Percy
02-13-2024 12:53 PM


quote:
But you made sensible people the topic before that
The point being that sensible people wouldn’t jump to conclusions on clearly inadequate evidence.
quote:
All I did was identify myself as a member of the group of people who you claim would not conclude that Jesus didn't exist, except that I do. And now you're further claiming that the opinion I hold means I'm not a sensible person. Woe to they who disagree with you.
Obviously not - it’s the reasoning I’m criticising, not the position.
quote:
You're trying to rule out disagreement out of hand by saying no sensible person would conclude differently than you.
No, I’m clearly not saying that.
On the other hand you aren’t answering with substantive points. You’re just complaining that you are considered less than sensible (possibly incorrectly, even after my clarification in Message 337). Would a sensible person do that ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Percy, posted 02-13-2024 12:53 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Percy, posted 02-13-2024 2:39 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 180 of 563 (915401)
02-13-2024 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Tangle
02-13-2024 1:44 PM


quote:
You are saying that the gospels are unreliable but we can rely on them for the historicity of Jesus? Doesn't work, sorry.
I guess if you want to take a very superficial view you could say that. But it’s hardly an accurate description. Unreliable does not mean “completely false”. Nor do I say that Jesus definitely existed - only that it seems more likely than not that there was a historical person behind the stories. L Ron Hubbard existed even though he never battled with a Japanese submarine, nor even suffered the serious injuries he supposedly healed.
Someone founded Christianity. They would have to have lived at about the time that Jesus is supposed to have lived. Why should he not have a common name at the time? Why should he not have parents named Joseph and Mary? Why should he not be executed by the Romans if he was fomenting rebellion, even if by only encouraging people to think of him as the Messiah?
The Gospel stories are there. Saying that they were just made up is not an adequate explanation for their existence - it explains nothing about them.
quote:
We don't we just say there's no evidence and then shrug.
It’s better than claiming certainty when no certainty is available.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2024 1:44 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2024 2:11 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 184 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-13-2024 2:29 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 196 by Theodoric, posted 02-13-2024 3:14 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 183 of 563 (915404)
02-13-2024 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Tangle
02-13-2024 2:11 PM


quote:
Sure, but "more likely than not" is a kind of certainty.
It isn’t though. It’s more likely than not that I’ll roll 3 or higher on an ordinary die. But it isn’t certain at all.
And if you want to change my mind all you have to do is offer better evidence or a better explanation of the evidence we do have. But I’ve yet to see any really good arguments for a purely mythical Jesus - although I have seen some appallingly bad ones.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2024 2:11 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2024 2:52 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 195 by Theodoric, posted 02-13-2024 3:14 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 186 of 563 (915407)
02-13-2024 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Tanypteryx
02-13-2024 2:29 PM


quote:
Since we don't have an adequate explanation for their source or basis, I don't see how making up an explanation helps
Then the Jesus Myther’s position is dead. Without an alternative explanation for the Gospels, the idea that they are a heavily fictionalised account of Christianity’s beginnings stands unchallenged.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-13-2024 2:29 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 189 of 563 (915410)
02-13-2024 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Percy
02-13-2024 2:39 PM


quote:
Revisionism. Discussion hadn't even started.
Outright falsehood. My original statement was
quote:
…we don’t know when or where Jesus was born, nor do we know much of his ancestry. But no sensible person concludes that Jesus didn’t exist based on those facts
Note the last four words. It’s not the conclusion it’s the reasoning.
quote:
You clearly are. Just look how you ended your post.
Yes, look at it and note how it doesn’t support your claim at all.
quote:
Message 337 is a clarification? Who could tell.
Someone who read it and noticed that I was suggesting that further evidence could make the conclusion sensible?
quote:
There you go again, trying to characterize people as not sensible even before any discussion has taken place.
Pointing out that your behaviour is less than sensible is simply stating a fact. The fact that you haven’t made any substantive points is down to you - it hardly makes your position any more sensible,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Percy, posted 02-13-2024 2:39 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Percy, posted 02-13-2024 4:07 PM PaulK has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024