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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman
Tangle
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Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 93 of 563 (848840)
02-16-2019 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by LamarkNewAge
02-16-2019 11:03 AM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
LNA writes:
You don't understand the issue at all (you aren't alone, so don't feel bad).
Perhaps it's you? Long shot I know.
It seems to me that the believers have to establish that this Jesus guy actually existed at all before they attempt the harder job of proving him to be supernatural.
If he can't even pass the human test of existing in fact not just fiction, there's no point progressing further.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-16-2019 11:03 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Tangle
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Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 110 of 563 (848867)
02-17-2019 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by LamarkNewAge
02-17-2019 12:48 AM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
LMA, Why do you think that dumping a pile of copy and paste text on a page is worth doing? I don't read it and I'm pretty sure nobody else does.
Why not make whatever argument you have, simply and short and stick to one point at a time using your own words?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-17-2019 12:48 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-17-2019 8:02 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
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Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 119 of 563 (848893)
02-18-2019 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by LamarkNewAge
02-17-2019 8:02 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
LNA writes:
I doubt most are familiar with the issues involved in dating Clement of Rome (1 Clement) to 90-100.
I would rather give people a chance to see what scholars (in this case, it was Bart Ehrman's Introduction to his translation of the man Catholics call "Pope Clement") look at.
Your problem is that no one cares what you'd rather do so if you keep on doing it regardless of our attempts to keep you to the point, you're not going to be communicating with anyone.
At the moment you're just entertaining yourself.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-17-2019 8:02 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Tangle
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Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 124 of 563 (848915)
02-18-2019 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
02-18-2019 12:54 PM


Re: The Legions need to understand the historical methodology (before making claims).
Odd that you don't think that about Mohammed or Joseph Smith or......

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 12:54 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 1:44 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
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Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 130 of 563 (848925)
02-18-2019 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Phat
02-18-2019 1:44 PM


Re: Jesus Drove The Franchise War
Phat writes:
I'll saythis much. Neither Muhammed nor (especially) Joseph Smith would have even been widely known had Jesus not started the trend.
I think the Jews would argue that Jesus was a newcomer to the trend. But in any case, the point is that other successful brands are available so your point is rebutted.
The next question is what did jesus originally represent that made Him a popular brand? Hope for oppressed downtrodden people? Liberation from stern secular governments? Liberation from authoritarian religions?
Sure and political opportunism etc.
Or perhaps you guys will argue that He became a myth that supported the creation of a franchise.
He probably WAS a myth that supported the creation of a franchise. And it's probably not a single He.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 02-18-2019 1:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
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Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 141 of 563 (915298)
02-12-2024 2:46 PM


I just read the thread. Nothing in it gives evidence for Jesus. Where is it? Absent.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 156 of 563 (915316)
02-12-2024 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by AZPaul3
02-12-2024 3:46 PM


AZPaul writes:
The books of the new testament that are Paul's letters to various congregations, is there any debate of their authenticity?
Oh yes. CoPilot
In the realm of New Testament scholarship, the authenticity of Paul’s epistles has been a topic of considerable debate. Let’s delve into this intriguing matter:
Authentic Epistles:
There is strong consensus among modern scholars regarding a core group of authentic Pauline epistles. These letters are rarely contested in terms of authorship:
Romans
1 and 2 Corinthians
Galatians
Philippians
1 Thessalonians
Philemon1.
These epistles are widely accepted as having been penned by Paul the Apostle himself.
Disputed Epistles:
However, several other letters attributed to Paul are contested:
Ephesians
Colossians
2 Thessalonians
1 and 2 Timothy
Titus1.
Scholarly opinion varies significantly regarding whether these disputed epistles are genuinely Pauline.
Some scholars propose that Paul might have used an amanuensis (a secretary) to write these letters, but this explanation doesn’t fully account for the fact that some of the disputed letters appear to have been written after Paul’s death.
Pseudepigraphical Works:
Among the contested epistles, Ephesians and the three known as the Pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy, and Titus) are often labeled as pseudepigraphical—that is, attributed to Paul but likely written by someone else.
Colossians and 2 Thessalonians remain sharply debated1.
Other Letters:
Apart from the New Testament epistles, there are two examples of pseudonymous letters written in Paul’s name: the Epistle to the Laodiceans and 3 Corinthians.
Interestingly, the Epistle to the Hebrews is traditionally attributed to Paul, but most modern scholars agree that it was not actually written by him1.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by AZPaul3, posted 02-12-2024 3:46 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 169 of 563 (915378)
02-13-2024 10:50 AM


The difficulty is that what we know evidentially about Jesus is pretty much exactly what we know about someone that never existed.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Theodoric, posted 02-13-2024 11:10 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
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Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 171 of 563 (915386)
02-13-2024 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Theodoric
02-13-2024 11:10 AM


I'm not remotely an expert on this but it seems that the lessor character John the Baptist has more evidence than Jesus. (From Flavius.) And Moses has none at all - shocking!

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Theodoric, posted 02-13-2024 11:10 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 12:31 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 185 by Theodoric, posted 02-13-2024 2:31 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 176 of 563 (915395)
02-13-2024 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by PaulK
02-13-2024 12:31 PM


PaulK writes:
It’s not surprising that John the Baptist has more evidence, being more successful than a historical Jesus actually would have been.
That's a tautology isn't it? JtB is more successful historically than JC because we have more evidence for him.
But JtB didn't perform miracles or rise from the dead - yet he has more historicity than JC who did?
Moses may be fictional
He didn't actually exist did he? No evidence at all.
No Moses, no commandments; let's get on with all that coveting.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 12:31 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 1:30 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
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Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 179 of 563 (915400)
02-13-2024 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by PaulK
02-13-2024 1:30 PM


PaulK writes:
Not entirely. After all the synoptic Gospels imply a very short career for Jesus as a preacher. Even the Gospels admit that Jesus came to John for baptism. And of course there is no problem with proposing that Jesus was far less successful than the Gospels say - we’d expect exaggeration there.
You are saying that the gospels are unreliable but we can rely on them for the historicity of Jesus? Doesn't work, sorry. We know that none of the authors of the bible actually knew or even met Jesus. We know that not one word of them was written by Jesus. We know that no contemporaneous historians wrote about Jesus. There's not much more historicity there than for Bilbo Baggins is there?
It’s hard to say. How do we tell the difference between pure fiction and fiction with some historical basis?
We don't we just say there's no evidence and then shrug.
And how do we say what was and was not part of that basis without evidence? The expulsion of the Hyksos was real - and maybe one of the inspirations for the Exodus story. Or maybe not. We can’t tell.
So we just shrug and go fishing. Why would we do anything else?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 1:30 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 1:54 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 182 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-13-2024 2:16 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 181 of 563 (915402)
02-13-2024 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by PaulK
02-13-2024 1:54 PM


PaulK writes:
It’s better than claiming certainty when no certainty is available.
Sure, but "more likely than not" is a kind of certainty. Not knowable is the neutral position.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 1:54 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 2:19 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 190 of 563 (915412)
02-13-2024 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by PaulK
02-13-2024 2:19 PM


PaulK writes:
It isn’t though. It’s more likely than not that I’ll roll 3 or higher on an ordinary die. But it isn’t certain at all.
But that 'more likely than not' is based on evidence - it's not an opinion, it's fact-based.
Without evidence, saying something is 'more likely than not' is creating a probability that you'd bet on out of thin air.
And if you want to change my mind all you have to do is offer better evidence or a better explanation of the evidence we do have. But I’ve yet to see any really good arguments for a purely mythical Jesus - although I have seen some appallingly bad ones.
Without actual evidence all any of us can say is "I believe ..."

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 2:19 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 2:55 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 194 of 563 (915416)
02-13-2024 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by PaulK
02-13-2024 2:55 PM


PaulK writes:
So? The point remains that “more likely than not” is not certainty.
Last word on this because we both know what we mean. "More likely than not" implies prior knowledge, the actual outcome is uncertain but the probability is known.
"More likely than not" with no prior knowledge is a guess.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 2:55 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2024 3:20 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 248 of 563 (915488)
02-14-2024 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by ICANT
02-13-2024 7:08 PM


You do know that we don't have Tacitus's original manuscript for the *Annals* or any other works? What we have are copies of his works that were made centuries after his death. The earliest surviving copies of Tacitus's *Annals* date to the 9th and 11th centuries AD, which means there's a considerable gap between the time Tacitus wrote and the surviving manuscripts.
So scholars have to rely on textual analysis, historical context, and comparisons with other ancient sources to assess its authenticity. The 'Christ' mention is a later addition, an interpolation or, to be more blunt, a forgery added by Christians in an attempt to make their claim for Jesus's existence more credible.
All that is quite separate from the fact that Tacitus was writing non-contemporaneously. He wasn't even born when Jesus was said to be alive. His information even if he had it was hearsay written about 80 years after the alleged events. It would be stories that he heard from Christians.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2024 7:08 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by ICANT, posted 02-14-2024 7:51 AM Tangle has replied

  
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