Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 57 (9173 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,585 Year: 4,842/9,624 Month: 190/427 Week: 0/103 Day: 0/8 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 262 of 563 (915508)
02-14-2024 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Rahvin
02-14-2024 12:45 AM


Rahvin writes:
But a man living in that region during Roman occupation forming a messianic cult following that expressed ideals that overlap with ideals already known in the region, who perhaps became too much of a disruption and was executed by the Romans...that doesn't sound like it would take much evidence to be plausible.
That's how I view it as well. For me, the existence of Jesus is really a minor question which I am more than happy to agree to just for the sake of argument. The real questions surround the supernatural claims made by the New Testament authors.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Rahvin, posted 02-14-2024 12:45 AM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 02-14-2024 12:38 PM Taq has replied
 Message 266 by Granny Magda, posted 02-14-2024 12:43 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 267 by AZPaul3, posted 02-14-2024 12:44 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


(3)
Message 274 of 563 (915521)
02-14-2024 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Phat
02-14-2024 12:38 PM


Re: Is "Supernatural" possible and if so, convincing?
Phat writes:
I would agree. And we won't find objective answers.

What we *will* find are numerous arguments both for and against a supernatural Jesus (or *any Jesus*) for that matter which are highly emotional and driven by a need to be right.
I am willing to be more generous than that. Religious belief is also driven by personal (subjective) experience and faith. I am one who believes that the human experience involves both the subjective and objective, so I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with religious belief/faith. I am not one who requires humans to be Vulcans and adhere to some universally applied true logic and objectivity. All I would ask is that people be honest about what can be objectively demonstrated and what can not.
So if people believe in God because of subjective emotions, experiences, and faith, all the more power to them. I absolutely support peoples' rights to pursue those beliefs. I would just ask for the same respect for those who don't believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 02-14-2024 12:38 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 313 of 563 (915592)
02-15-2024 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Phat
02-15-2024 1:02 AM


Re: A Brief Word For Theo
Phat writes:
Did it ever occur to you that Faith/Belief, though offered to everyone, was only received by those who willfully received it?
I do have to say that the uneven geographic distribution of this offering is a bit strange.
One of the concepts that first made me doubt my beliefs was the question of what I would believe if I had been born elsewhere. If I was born in Iran would I be Muslim? Probably. If I was born in India would I be Hindu? Probably. It seemed to me that the truth of religious belief shouldn't be based on where you are born. That made me doubt all supernatural claims made by religions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Phat, posted 02-15-2024 1:02 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 1:06 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 315 of 563 (915594)
02-15-2024 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by ICANT
02-15-2024 1:06 PM


Re: A Brief Word For Theo
ICANT writes:
Lets assume for a moment that the Bible is true.
We could do the very same thing for every other religious text.
I have friends that were raised Hindu but today they are born again children of God. I have friends who was raised Muslim and are now born again children of God. I have a lot of friends who were raised Communist but are now born again children of God. I have friends that their parents died atheist but they are now born again children of God.
There are Christians who have converted to Islam, Hinduism, and any number of other religions.
So it does not make any difference where you are born.
Yes, it does. Any map will show an uneven distribution of faiths amongst the human population.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 1:06 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 318 of 563 (915598)
02-15-2024 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by ICANT
02-15-2024 1:36 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
ICANT writes:
That is like saying it is not a coincidence that everyone who writes about the BBT are the scientist that believe in the BBT. When they can not produce one shred of evidence that is the way the universe began to exist from non existence.
There are multiple, independent lines of evidence supporting the BBT:
Evidence for the Big Bang | The Schools' Observatory
The scientist assumes that somehow the universe began to exist and since it does exist what he believes happened the way he believes it did.
No assumption is being made. It is a conclusion based on objective evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 1:36 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 4:48 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 325 of 563 (915622)
02-15-2024 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by ICANT
02-15-2024 2:27 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
ICANT writes:
You and no Atheist here believe what historians say about Jesus.
Since historians disagree with one another I don't think you can blame us.
Speaking for myself, I see no reason to reject the claim that Jesus was a historical person. Joseph Smith and Muhammad were definitely historical people, yet I don't see orthodox Christians converting to those religions based on those facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 2:27 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 4:55 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 328 of 563 (915632)
02-15-2024 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by ICANT
02-15-2024 4:48 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
ICANT writes:
Assumptions are necessary.
Where did the Universe come from?
Scientific answer is we don't know.p
We don't need to know where the universe came from in order to conclude that the universe began as a dense region of energy that expanded outwards. In the same way, we don't need to know where energy and matter came from in order to understand how clouds form. You might as well claim that germs causing disease is an assumption because we don't know where the energy for the universe came from.
Yes God stretched out the universe and is still doing so which causes the redshift which tells me the universe is expanding.
I suppose God also causes clouds and infections?
They didn't mention that we also have some blueshift of several Galaxies that tells me everything did not have its's beginning with that little pea sized universe as it expanded in every direction at once.
Yes, there are blue shifted galaxies that are part of our local galaxy cluster due to the fact that we are all orbiting around a shared barycenter. The redshift is for galaxies that aren't gravitationally bound to the Milky Way or our galaxy cluster.
Yes an eternity ago God started arranging everything from some of the energy that was available to Him in the first light period. I don't know how hot pure energy would be, as no one knows.
We know exactly what temperature it was and what the energy came from. Once the universe expanded to the point where the energy density dropped to levels that allowed atoms to form from plasma, light was finally able to move through the universe without being absorbed by the plasma. This is the moment the CMB was produced. We know both the temperature and the cause of the CMB, and it is further evidence by the power spectrum of the CMB which is consistent with black body radiation.
Yes they had to begin to exist somewhere in the creation event as did everything else. God had an eternity to create the heavens and earth in.
I don't see you providing any predictions on the relative isotope makeup of that matter. The BBT does make those predictions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 4:48 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2024 12:01 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 330 of 563 (915634)
02-15-2024 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by ICANT
02-15-2024 4:55 PM


Re: "Probable" Is Reserved For Believers Not Doubters
ICANT writes:
I saw Jim Jones, but I did not follow him either.

I talk to Taq and I am not going to follow him either.
Correct. Whether a person actually existed in the past doesn't have much relevance to the claims made about their lives. George Washington existed, but we know the story about the cherry tree was invented for his political campaign.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2024 4:55 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024