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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 98 of 563 (848849)
02-16-2019 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
02-16-2019 12:11 PM


Re: The Foreign Legion Of Mythos
I can see why you prefer building a case for origins that is based in what we can prove and understand. I can also see why such an approach limits the understanding and conceptualization of a Deity.
We don't need to go that far. Just a cursory glance at human history/psychology shows quite sufficiently that any such conceptions are fictitious.
In other words, if we can't understand it, it likely need not exist for all intents and purposes.
Not that we "can't understand it". We can't understand Dark Energy but we know it exists. Efficaciousness does not require understanding.
With this god thing it is more of a "no discernible effect on anything in this universe" which means no evidence whatsoever. That alone creates the case of "not exist for all intents and purposes."

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 02-16-2019 12:11 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 02-16-2019 5:05 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 108 of 563 (848860)
02-16-2019 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
02-16-2019 5:05 PM


Re: The Foreign Legion Of Mythos
They can't find a lot of the supposed antimatter in the universe that should exist either. Does that then mean that it does not exist for ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES?
Bad example. We know that there was once lots of anti-matter and we know why there isn't so much anymore. And since we can make it in our labs we know it does exist regardless of intent or purpose.
One difference between believers and the rest of you in general seems to be that believers presuppose that God should exist.
Why? Because you were told this as an innocent trusting non-critical child?
Later, at around age 30, I became "born again" and felt subjective evidence of His reality
You got emotional. You know how emotion affects judgement.
I'm beginning to think that there is a reason for all of this disconnect in our culture, and I'm not sure how to explain it
How about this: Religion is bad for the culture, the society, the species.
It would be nothing more than my subjective belief anyway, but I am convinced that the scientific method has not neatly tied this argument up yet.
Well, actually science has already decided. Anything that can be asserted without evidence is just as easily dismissed without any concern at all.
look at how often we were wrong before about many things.
You're being a good straight man, Phat.
Having been wrong about so many things in the past is exactly why the scientific methods, all of them, were devised and are so strongly and highly regarded.
And yes, we "limit yourselves by sticking to evidence" and the other things you mention so to avoid the egregious errors of the past and their disastrous consequences.
They all sound like you guys!
Proper analysis of an issue will lead to consensus. Good for us.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 137 of 563 (915294)
02-12-2024 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Granny Magda
02-12-2024 12:09 PM


I have to ask; how much information do you think we ought to have?
I have to wonder what happened to the historians and scribes of the time. Why did they not record the strange and mysterious workings of this young rabi? They recorded quite a bit about the movers and shakers of the time and, with their exchange of letters, we get a glimpse into the social sides of the society. Not a word of the miracle worker from the Levant.
If a divine priest was performing such miracles to the extent the myths indicate then someone, even in a pitifully illiterate society, would have noticed and recorded, even the rumors, of the events. Those are the missing pieces of evidence that should be there if this myth were true.
One could argue that we just haven’t found any such documentation because, reasons. Granted. IMHO unlikely.
To be clear, I assume we're talking about a realistic Jesus here, not one who walked on water and got into fights with fruit trees. The idea of Jesus as an apocalyptic preacher who left an outsized legacy doesn't seem at all implausible to me.
Among the myriad ministries I understand were prevalent at the time nothing stood out enough, apparently, to write about. Nothing any of these apocalyptic preachers said moved society enough for what few scribes there were to notice and record. If there were an outsized legacy from this rabi then it appears to have been developed decades after the fact by story tellers embellishing some interesting stories.
I agree. Doesn't seem at all implausible.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Granny Magda, posted 02-12-2024 12:09 PM Granny Magda has replied

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 148 of 563 (915307)
02-12-2024 3:46 PM


Quick question too lazy to look up.
The books of the new testament that are Paul's letters to various congregations, is there any debate of their authenticity?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 163 of 563 (915357)
02-12-2024 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Theodoric
02-12-2024 9:27 PM


Why should we be discussing a Jesus that is not Jesus.
There had to have been an early church or Saul would have had no one to persecute. If the secular historians accept Paul’s authorship, even in part, then by his own (accepted) words there was a church in existence. I find it difficult to believe that such a church would have developed from, say, a quantum fluctuation. Since the early followers were inspired by something, and Saul says it was this christ conception, then I have no problem personifying that conception as ‘Jesus’.
A speculation:
I imagine the early church as small cells of devout rebels hidden in back rooms where they discuss and pray with all the doors and windows covered. And I can accept that this new message of salvation and revolutionary hope was attractive to the radical religious fantasy believers of the time. Then Paul shows up. Things start to change. Paul travels around visiting these small hidden groups and gets himself in trouble with leaders of the early church and goes on a rampage of letters, admonishing the old views and demanding adherence to the new word. Everything from the divinity of Christ and the gift of the cross to his personal distaste for circumcision and women, make major marks on the philosophy of the movement. So much so that Paul’s writings still form the backbone of all Christianity.
I have no idea what the initial Christic church was, flower child and/or rebel. But what they ended up with is the promise of forever life through divine salvation and a charge to convert the world. What they ended up with was the Pauline church.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 236 of 563 (915475)
02-13-2024 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by PaulK
02-13-2024 4:24 PM


The position that I consider to be “not sensible” is the position that we can conclude that Jesus didn’t exist (solely) because we don’t know where or when he was born.
I agree. Is someone making that argument? Only the two criteria?
How about the rest of the gospel(s)? Is there any happening involving this charismatic rabi recorded earlier than the first gospel, Mark? Are there any reasons to show that Mark didn’t just write up a tall tale as was the want back then?
I wouldn’t think the objection to Jesus would be some undocumented time/place of (supposed) birth. There are many more aspects to Jesus’ existence and actions that go undocumented even with that first narrative by Mark. Like all of them.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 243 of 563 (915482)
02-14-2024 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by PaulK
02-14-2024 12:19 AM


quote:
but there is no historical Jesus.
So you assume. Maybe you should get some decent arguments to back up,that assumption.
The total lack of evidence does that for me. Yes, I assume no evidence means no Jesus.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by PaulK, posted 02-14-2024 12:19 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 246 of 563 (915485)
02-14-2024 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Rahvin
02-14-2024 12:45 AM


If I tell you that I saw a squirrel run across the street this morning, but provide no evidence, do you assume there was no squirrel?
No, of course not. Nothing to question. But if you told me it was god running across the street I'd question.
But a man living in that region during Roman occupation forming a messianic cult following that expressed ideals that overlap with ideals already known in the region, who perhaps became too much of a disruption and was executed by the Romans...that doesn't sound like it would take much evidence to be plausible.
Quite plausible. But actual?
Didn't the Romans record their executions? Wouldn't the governor's monthly status report to Caesar mention something as glorious and self-serving as offing another meddlesome rebel? Maybe everywhere but here?
I'm not saying you're wrong, Rahvin. The scenarios are quite plausible. Just missing evidence, that IMHO shoulda/coulda/whoulda have been there if correct.
When this kind of conclusion involves every aspect of the subject making them invisible to all outside the gospel ... there is a reasonable logical conclusion to be formed.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Phat, posted 02-14-2024 3:01 AM AZPaul3 has replied
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 249 of 563 (915489)
02-14-2024 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Phat
02-14-2024 3:01 AM


Re: Preconceived Notions
Wouldn't you want to know what god looked like?
Not at all. Remember, Phat, I'm the one who poofed all the gods into oblivion with the power of my mind some time ago. I know very well what each and every one of those posers looks like.
You would no more seek such evidence as would I seek evidence that Joe Biden ...
Not now, no. That quest to find has been completed. I ended up killing all of them, Phat. I killed each and every god, devil, satan, demon and all their associated kin, Phat. There is not one holy ghost left to find.
I don't care for arguments made of apologists paper mache, Phat. They just repeat the same-old same-old. I've seen them all. I'll skip your embedded bullshit.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Phat, posted 02-14-2024 3:01 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Phat, posted 02-14-2024 3:29 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 251 of 563 (915491)
02-14-2024 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Phat
02-14-2024 3:29 AM


Re: Preconceived Notions
So in other words, you are as close minded as I am.
My mind was opened by Newton and Einstein, Nietzsche and Kant.
Your mind was once a steel trap. Then you devoured a bible; now it is rusted shut.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 267 of 563 (915514)
02-14-2024 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Taq
02-14-2024 12:16 PM


The real questions surround the supernatural claims made by the New Testament authors.
Oooo, can 'o worms.
What questions surround the supernatural claims made by the New Testament authors?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 277 of 563 (915526)
02-14-2024 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by PaulK
02-14-2024 1:03 PM


If you know a way to determine the contents of the relevant reports, let us know.
Me!? I'm the one asking.
Were there such things? Is there a probability such executions were recorded and reported up the political chain?
Does anyone out there know? It does no good to just ask me the same question. If I had answers I would not have had to inquire.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 282 of 563 (915534)
02-14-2024 3:44 PM


Ok, so now that the dust has settled, we can conclude the following:
1. The biblical Jesus is a non-starter. Didn’t happen.
2. A historical Jesus is a probability in that:
a. Scholars think some of Paul’s letters are plausibly him.
b. In the story of Saul that he wrote, there apparently was a job that involved taking Christians to Damascus for persecution.
c. There were christians, there was a church at the time of Saul.
d. Someone had to start it. Identified as the historical Jesus
No one can say, as documented fact, what this someone did or said. All we have are the stories, suspect apocryphal.
The stories make this place-holder Jesus seem like a loving flower child who liked to piss off his elders. Stories. It was all oral history, so it seems, since there was no parchment with any of these myths inked in until Mark (whoever) dropped his gospel. Everything after is suspect copy with embellishment. Especially that nutjob John. That boy was higher than I am and it burned his brain.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 285 of 563 (915537)
02-14-2024 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Tangle
02-14-2024 3:55 PM


You can't get from any of that to "probable."
How about to "certainty", then.
The church did not start itself. Such person or persons, the historical Jesus, exists to instantiate the founders.
I give no abilities of any sort to this Jesus save to jawbone a small sect into existence.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 288 of 563 (915540)
02-14-2024 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Tangle
02-14-2024 4:37 PM


quote:

The church did not start itself. Such person or persons, the historical Jesus, exists to instantiate the founders.
I see two statements of fact. What do you see?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Tangle, posted 02-14-2024 4:37 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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