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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
And that has nothing to do with what the government takes.
The issue has everything to do with the hook I *should be* on and the lack of such a hook for you, Tangle, and dwise1. Phat writes:
Which has nothing to do with the topic or with anything anybody is talking about, except you.
Thus I bring up the government as the alternative hook which you likely would ALL support and how I would fight it. Phat writes:
Here's a homework assignment for you: Look up the word "liberal" in the Bible. It might even stop you from using it as a swearword.
Liberals like government. Phat writes:
If that was true, you could call me a conservative. But of course it isn't true. It's wildly false, ridiculously false. Conservatives worship the dollar. Look at yourself.
Conservatives are the ones who say let the dollar crash... Phat writes:
Such as?
... we have our own alternative ways out of the mess. Phat writes:
As I have said before, the ultimate free enterprise is crime. I say let the free enterprise run the show .... Of course, your conservative buddies are already doing that, stealing every nickel they can get their hands on.
Phat writes:
Read a book, for God's sake. Have you no inkling of history? ... rather than mandatory government solutions. They have not worked yet. It was mandatory government solutions that got us out of the Great Depression, for one blindingly obvious example. Now you give us an example of conservative thievery solving anything.
Phat writes:
Take that to an appropriate thread.
Stay tuned and we will talk about this crisis as it unfolds in 2022-2023. Phat writes:
He has already said that He will spew you out of His mouth and you will not have eternal life. Here's another place where He said it:
As for Jesus, I pray He does not give up on me for my refusal to trust Him with all I have.quote "Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I asked you to look up "liberal" in the BIBLE. I did my homework out of semi-desperation this morning. I didn't expect you to do it, so I did it for you. Here is every reference (in the KJV) to the word "liberal":
quote And here are references to variations - e.g. "liberality", "liberally":
quote It looks to me like the Bible has a pretty positive attitudes toward liberals.
Phat writes:
Well, the Bible is against your personal beliefs.
Why I get so mad at "Liberals" has been partly because I have felt that they (you) were against me and my personal beliefs... Phat writes:
I keep asking you, why wouldn't you do what Jesus told you to do?
... and expected me to listen to "what Jesus" told me to do. Phat writes:
Not very ironic. Unbelievers tend to be more honest than believers. Ironic that this edict comes from a group of unbelievers!"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Who has disputed any of those things here? Devastating Solar Storm Hits Earth​ The San Andreas Fault: Disaster About to Strike]The San Andreas Fault: Disaster About to Strike ​ Yellowstone: Big Volcano Ready to Erupt Volcanic Hyper Eruption But you're being dishonest. You've been talikng about Who Controls All Our Money? here and there is no easy answer to that question. Will solar storms cause devastation? Yes. Will earthquakes devastate California? Yes. Will the Yellowstone volcano erupt? Yes. Who controls our money? Well, I have pretty good control over my wallet. You'd have to point a gun at me to get control of it. But I don't have control over what a dollar is worth. And I don't have control over how many dollars the government takes from me. Those things are effected by floods, fires and famine. Wars and rumours of war. But you're trying to make connections between all of those complications and your God, who does not exist. Those imaginary connections are what people are arguing with you.
Phat writes:
Ten thousand years in the future doesn't concern me much. I'm more concerned about ten years in the future.
In my opinion, humans are likely to exasperate their own demise with or without scientific evidence of upcoming disasters, which could well be ten thousand years in the future. Phat writes:
I've been trying to tell you, financial collapses happen all the time. I keep hearing about a "crash" that happened in 2008 - but I never even noticed it at the time. (It may have been when I didn't have a TV.)
Two things irritate me for better or worse. One, which the facts show as likely, a financial collapse will occur within our lifetimes. Phat writes:
How do you fight a war after a financial collapse? And if you can still fight wars, why can't you still do all of the other things that humans do?
And this alone could trigger further global wars. Phat writes:
And humanity has never had challenges before?
And even with no God, no apocalypse and no religious judgment, there are many events which could challenge humanity. Phat writes:
It's not a "claim". It's what the Bible says. If there is such a things as a theme that permeates the entire Bible, it's trust in God, not yourself.
ringo claims that I, as the "Christian" am commanded by Jesus to give everything up. Phat writes:
Dredge is so commanded. Faith is so commanded, even though she might dispute that Dredge is so commanded, since he's a satan-worshipping Catholic. No one else here is so commanded. I'll say this again, on the off-chance that it might get through your thick skull:
Those of us who don't believe Jesus and/or God exist have no reason to obey Him/Them. Why is that so hard to understand?
Phat writes:
You should stop fearing what we don't understand and make more of an attempt to understand yourself.
And yet I fear that you dont understand.... Phat writes:
My answer is the same as it has always been: We have to be. Nobody's going to do it for us. My question to all of you is this: Is humanity ready to cooperate should chaos erupt? I don't know why you keep asking the same questions over and over again. Do you expect to get different answers?"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Jesus disagreed with you. (John 20) Except that evidence is not required for belief."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
The point is that Jesus presented evidence. Jesus respected evidence. You do not.
Jesus also said blessed are those who have *not* seen and have yet believed. What's your point? Phat writes:
Again, it's not about being "better" or "worse" than Thomas. Read my lips: Jesus voluntarily presented evidence to the other disciples when Thomas was not there. Thomas doubted the disciples. He didn't doubt Jesus. When Thomas was present, Jesus AGAIN voluntarily presented evidence to him. NOBODY in the story believed without evidence.
You would likely be even worse than Thomas. Phat writes:
Forever doubting is a good thing. Always be skeptical, no matter how much evidence there is. One little piece of new evidence can change everything. Take Newtonian mechanics. ALL of the evidence supported it - until it didn't.
Ringo: "Unless all of my friends and colleagues agree with the evidence you show me, I'll forever doubt." Phat writes:
How is that worse? Or even worse:Ringo: "Unless the people who claim to be followers give everything up in order to follow you, I will have my doubts that anyone knows you." And it isn't just that I "have doubts" about anybody knowing God. I have a pretty solid conclusion that YOU don't."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I've told this story before: When we were kids, I could demonstrate to my younger brother that [something] was not true and his response would be, "But I think it is." I could demonstrate six ways from Sunday that it was NOT true and his reponse would still be, "But I think it is." OK so we can agree that there is no evidence. Now what? That's you. Nothing can sway you. No facts, no logic, no reality. Your opinion trumps all."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
I used it deliberately. I almost capitalized it to emphasize the point. please use a different word than "trumps all". I dont like that word for some reason. (For somebody who claims not to like Trump, you sure agree with him a lot.)"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
O come on. You should know better than that. If you agree with A and Trump agrees with A, then you agree with Trump. Its not Trump I agree with Its conservative platforms like continuing with oil and gas until we get green off the ground And it's pretty likely that what Trump agrees with is good for Trump, not you. As for the blah blah blah about spending, shove it."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It is ALWAYS healthy to question and doubt. It is NEVER healthy to slavishly follow "what sounds good" even if it comes from the Almighty William Lane Craig. (I don't know who that is, by the way.)
I suppose it is healthy to question and even doubt at times Phat writes:
I laugh. We have a commercial with a guy talking about "the great recession of 2008". I never noticed it. I was doing pretty well at the time. In my memory, we have had several worse economic periods, some of which effected me and some of which didn't.
When the economy goes berzerk... Phat writes:
Hint for wannabe prophets: Don't predict anything within your own lifetime. ... as it surely will within 5 years at the latest"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Does that include Islam? I believe, however, that nobody should be talked or coached out of their faith. And if they could be talked out of it, how valid was it anyway? I think freeing people from slavery is a good thing. People should be taught how to think their way out of it."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
What about Hindus, then? Which of the Hindu gods can you shoehorn your Jesus into?
Not if you are coaching them to throw Allah away. If you are a Christian, OTOH, you can explain to them that Allah really DID have a Son. Phat writes:
You wish that was true, don't you? You wish you could believe that MY faith was never as strong as YOUR faith. You sure either got talked out of it or talked yourself out of it quite easily. But it isn't true. Not even close to being close to being true. I never had anybody try to talk me out of my faith (see disclaimer below). On the contrary, just about everybody I knew tried to keep me IN my faith. It would have been SOOOOO easy to keep believing.... Except that there was no truth to the belief. It wasn't that I didn't WANT to believe. It was that what I was supposed to believe was nonsense. Disclaimer: It was people like YOU who destroyed my beliefs. Your utterly stupid attempts to bolster your utterly stupid beliefs only confirm that it would be utterly stupid to fall into that trap again.
Phat writes:
You're taught lies. Except that Christians are taught that we are sons and daughters. NOT Slaves. Have you ever seen Conan the Barbarian? Thulsa Doom (James Earl Jones) calls Conan (Arnold Schwarzenegger), "My son, my son," as he is hypnotizing him so he can kill him. You're a slave who has been fooled into thinking he's a son. You're a janitor who thinks he owns the building.
Phat writes:
And yet you're constantly talking against evidence, rationality, skepticism, etc. Practice what you preach. If people would THINK rationally, skeptically, based on evidence, there would be a lot less religion in the world.
People should be taught to think period. Phat writes:
But it IS harmful to you. Your faith has made you an arrogant bastard who thinks he knows better than everybody else. You're constantly telling us that "we'll see" that you were right. It's harming you financially. It's harmin your physical heath and your mental health. There is not always a need to get out of something unless it is harmful for you."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I can't find what you quoted in the post you quoted, so I don't know what you said that was supposedly a "joke".
ringo writes:
​First off, it was meant to be a joke directed at you. You and GDR postulate a puny god who can't do this and can't understand that. We humans create things that are deliberately stronger than us and smarter than us. Phat writes:
I can't understand why YOU can't understand that "allowing" evil when you can prevent it is the same as DOING evil. And I don't know why you would joke about that.
At how you can't understand a God who "allows evil". Phat writes:
I have answered that many times. You really should read my posts. Second of all, if you can imagine a God stronger and smarter than you, and if you claim that YOUR Faith was every bit as strong---stronger even than MY faith, why did you dump Jesus? I dumped the character Jesus BECAUSE he's just a character. He never existed. He never died. He never rose from the dead. He is certainly NOT alive today. The theology you have made up around him is inconsistent and irrational nonsense. On the other hand, YOU have dumped his message.
Phat writes:
I thought I knew Jesus, just like you think you know Jesus. I was told that I could know Jesus just like you have been told that you can know Jesus. But it's a lie.
And if you were Christian...Mennonite or whatever...you would have known Jesus. Phat writes:
Not even if Jesus explicitly said that it was an ironclad rule that you MUST follow or else? And isn't it convenient that you decide you don't have to do anything hard?
I don't see something in the Good Book (no longer dusty, I wiped it clean with a sanitizing towelette) as an ironclad rule that I MUST follow or else. Phat writes:
First of all, "challenging Jesus" would be a very stupid thing to do. Second, you certainly DO mock the idea of giving up everything and trusting him.
You claim that I mock Jesus. Challenging Him is NOT mocking Him. Phat writes:
You're a slave to right-wing politics and right-wing theology.
Again, I'm a Son...NOT a Slave. Phat writes:
All faith is authoritarian. Why else would your handlers tell yo to avoid skepticism and doubt?
I think that your Faith was so authoritarian... Phat writes:
Just like YOU are afraid to THINK yourself out of it.
... that you were afraid--at first--to talk yourself out of it. Phat writes:
No. Critical thought is never secure. The whole point of critical thought is to avoid carved-in-stone secure ideas.
Once you did, you left in peace secure in your new knowledge of facts and critical thought... Phat writes:
What's sad about getting rid of a false idea?
...yet sad to wave away Jesus as some human-created mythos. Phat writes:
Because then you'd have to face the dreaded reality.
I would NEVER do such a thing. Phat writes:
A life without regrets is an empty life.
Perhaps I don't listen to Him as strongly as you once did, but I have no regrets. Phat writes:
The apologist has lost that argument many times in this forum.
The apologist would argue that evil had to be part of the option of true free will. Phat writes:
Why shouldn't intelligence lead where it leads?
Im in favor of intelligence and feel that it should *not* lead to abandoning ones faith.... Phat writes:
And yet you're afraid to doubt your faith and your made-up Jesus.
ringo writes:
OK, I agree. It is ALWAYS healthy to question and doubt. It is NEVER healthy to slavishly follow "what sounds good" even if it comes from the Almighty William Lane Craig. Phat writes:
I don't know what that means.
If an oddly shaped alian body were ever found, you all would jump on that belief simply due to the facts of scientific enquiry and evidence. Phat writes:
It is convenient that the Bible is wrong so many times just on the first page. You don't have to read much of it - but the more you do read, the more you find that's wrong.
Heck, dwise1 gave up after reading Genesis!! Phat writes:
You didn't give up on the Bible until the New testament. You made up your own Jesus to replace the one who expects you to DO things.
I would have given up too! Phat writes:
That's like saying you don't resent mothers feeding their babies. What on earth would give you the right to resent it?
I dont resent you all having given up. Phat writes:
Sure. They're more like slaves than you are. And yet you keep agreeing with Trump. Additionally, you can make a case for the modern conservatives and their slavish devotion to Trump. They are more like slaves than the Christians are! ************* Thanks for the report on Faith. I always liked her (she reminds me of a real-life Faith I used to know) and I wish she would/could come back. You can tell her that I, for one, forgive her, though I suspect that her list of her "sins" against us would not align with mine. I think I always gave better (worse) than I got with her."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why would I blame something that doesn't exist? I don't blame the leprechauns either. I won't disagree except to say not to blame Jesus for my behavior. It is all on me. And I don't care about your behavior. It's your hatred of thinking that I don't like."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's a silly attempt at cleverness. Without lead there is no follow.
Its not so much where "it" leads....its where you follow. Phat writes:
It couldn't be any more black-and-white that it is the standard. You're not mocking a claim. You're mocking the standard.
No, I mock you for claiming it is the standard. Phat writes:
Argument from popularity is not valid.
I would estimate that less than 5% of self-proclaimed Christians do it. Phat writes:
How would you know that?
You never dared to do it. Phat writes:
That has nothing to do with followig the standard.
You thought yourself out of what you labled a fantasy. Phat writes:
How could I possibly put pressure on you?
And then turn up the pressure on me... Phat writes:
You've already demonstrated that your faith isn't real. What difference would it make if you admitted that YOUR made-up Jesus doesn't exist?
... hoping I will also deny that Jesus exists. Phat writes:
YOU are limiting Him to the version that YOU made up. The version in the book is the only evidence we have for His existence.
If Jesus existed, (which I believe He does) He would not limit Himself to a character in a book. Phat writes:
Your assurance is worthless. It's perfectly obvious that your version is made up.
And I can assure you I don't make Him up. Phat writes:
The same way any other fictional character is made up.
How could I? Phat writes:
Show how they are illogical.
It's your standards that are the illogical idea. Phat writes:
I'm defending all of the evidence that we have. How could I do more than that? All you are defending is a book."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Like Duame Gish? He lies faster than his lies can be refuted? Liberals are frustrated that nobody that they send can "beat" him in a debate."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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