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Author | Topic: Charismatic Chaos | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But we have no reason to think that's true.
The problem here is that God is God before humans even were. Phat writes:
A "thus" that comes from an empty statement is equally empty. Thus, we cannot limit God as we do our other unevidenced creations. As I have pointed out, without evidence to distinguish one made-up idea from another, there is no way to distinguish one made-up idea from another."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: God is good. Not "complete" as jar suggests. That's simply too threatening. Which is another clue. The fact that your only rebuttal is that it's simply too threatening should be a clue to YOU that the reason you reject the concept is that it scares you, not that it is unreasonable or impossible or not supported by logic and evidence and so you create the God in YOUR image. Edited by jar, : No reason given. Edited by jar, : fix sub-title
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: What reasons do we have to think its false? I can think of a few you might use: But we have no reason to think that's true.1) There is no evidence God does anything. Upon which I would say to quit using evidence as the only standard. Quite clearly the dogma basically says that a minority of people will understand and a majority either won't get it or will reject it. 2)How would we know which God turned out to be real, if any? Obviously the One who would want relationship with humanity---to become reconnected. Our major mistake as a species was disconnecting.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: So you reject the "dogma" that God is good all the time and all the time God is good? It seems the GOD you imagine is so complex that we would be lucky to even get an audience. ...the reason you reject the concept is that it scares you, not that it is unreasonable or impossible or not supported by logic and evidenceChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
False is the default. Innocent until proven guilty, no unicorns without evidence, etc. Otherwise we'd be up to our ears in possibilities with no way to thin the herd.
What reasons do we have to think its false? Phat writes:
Quit saying that. It's stupid. If there was any other standard we'd be using it.
Upon which I would say to quit using evidence as the only standard. Phat writes:
That's my question to you. Every argument you use against Zeus can be used against your God.
How would we know which God turned out to be real, if any? Phat writes:
There's nothing obvious about that, or even sensible.
Obviously the One who would want relationship with humanity---to become reconnected. Phat writes:
Species don't make mistakes. Only individuals make mistakes. Our major mistake as a species was disconnecting. And the whole "disconnection" thing is just another lie told by apologists. The whole Bible is about people connecting with God."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: So you reject the "dogma" that God is good all the time and all the time God is good? What is the evidence from the Bible Phat? The Dogma is simply a denial of what is actually written in the Bible and creating a God in the Apologists image. And the evidence seems to scare you. Again, note that you did not provide any evidence or logic or reasoning and just revert to "Apologists said it first".
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I was always taught that God is good. A God Who is simply "complete" as you suggest is not logical as he would essentially have a dualistic personality.
Modern Charismania always has a Hero (Jesus) a Villain(Satan) and a Victim: Unregenerate humans. Ironically, global politics has followed this theme.We have a Hero (US Freedom and Democracy, a Villain(Islam is the most recent, along with Terrorism) and a Victim. I often see myself as the victim, but we have discussed others---namely ethnic minorities. It seems as if the global struggle always involves some who want what others have. But getting back to this---why is God complete rather than good? A case can be made scripturallly for both positions.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Which "God" though? Good One? Complete One? Or even the bad one...Iran calls us "The Great Satan"...is there any truth to that? The whole Bible is about people connecting with God.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: But getting back to this---why is God complete rather than good? A case can be made scripturallly for both positions. What scripture? Are you going back to the pick the scripture you like conjob that is the Hall Mark of the Charismatic?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
How can you possibly determine which scripture to pick then? What is the purpose of scripture?
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: How can you possibly determine which scripture to pick then? What is the purpose of scripture? First scripture is any writings assumed to be related to divinity. The Qur'an and Book of the Dead and Eight Fold Path and Bhagavad Git all have similar standing, similar authority, similar validity. People pick and choose based on the God or Theology they wish to create. It's possible to learn from the content of all scripture and the purpose of all scripture is to market the position favored by the author. The readers task is to test the content against reason, logic and reality.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
That's pretty much the whole truth. The only Satan is us - but us including Iran of course. Iran calls us "The Great Satan"...is there any truth to that?"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: In another topic, you say that the idea of God is not illogical. So why is the idea of an angel who freely (and finally) chose to rebel a nonsensical idea? You must answer by saying "because he would know from the start he couldn't win" but I challenge that assumption. I need to look no further than myself. Sometime s I choose to be rebellious because I think and believe that I CAN win. The whole idea of Satan being "the bad guy" is nonsense. And the whole idea of free will is useless. And free will is anything but useless. It is a reality. Within limits, we have free will. We cannot freely choose our own heaven (or hell) and we cannot freely choose to teleport across the universe. We do have limits inherent to our nature. But we freely decide every day how to act. What to believe. And whether or not we want to be "good" or a bit naughty. We do have these choices. Good and evil are absolutes, however. We cannot simply decide that good is bad without lying to ourselves.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
It's nonsensical in the context of the God that YOU have created. A logical God could be created and logical angels could be created. But you describe a supposedly "all-powerful" God - who has a powerful rival. So why is the idea of an angel who freely (and finally) chose to rebel a nonsensical idea? ??? That's like saying Bill Gates has all of the money in the world - and Elon Musk has some money too. It's not consistent, not logical.
Phat writes:
You should stop trying to predict what I'm going to say. Your time would be better spent thinking through your own position.
You must answer by saying "because he would know from the start he couldn't win"... Phat writes:
Again, that statement is self-contradictory. It's like saying a prisoner has complete freedom within his cell.
Within limits, we have free will. Phat writes:
False. Good and evil are absolutes, however."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Perhaps I should clarify.
Phat writes:
Within limits, we have free will.ringo writes: If God exists and is anything like the One I describe, you would have free will within limits. the only way you could have free will with no limits is if you yourself were godlike. Now...I'm not sure what the definition of "godlike" would be, but it sheds light on the story of the angels. Even the fallen ones were a bit like gods. They were eternal. They had power within their assigned realms. (substitute the word predetermined for assigned) In other words, you may have free will to ignore God, avoid Spinich, and live in canada. What you dont have is free will to define reality, control the weather, live forever or be able to lift 2000 lbs. When the snake declared that A&E would be as gods, the snake meant (in my opinion) that they would live eternally one way or another...either as in rebellion or in communion with universal truth and love. Again, assuming the snake as an extension of satan, satan can live forever. What he can't do is supervise the universe. What e cant do is woo followers through love and discipline. What he can't do is be God. At best, he can be like God in certain aspects. Humans listened to the wrong voice, but apparently it was foreknown to happen. It's not as if God made a mistake. It's a lesson that we are still learning and processing. t statement is self-contradictory. It's like saying a prisoner has complete freedom within his cell. Furthermore, there are many of you who don't believe that God exists. Your right to decide on your beliefs is an aspect of your free will. What you don't have a right to do is define reality. If God (or satan) exists, it is beyond the scope of your limited free will. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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