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Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
Straggler
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 112 of 531 (515079)
07-15-2009 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by onifre
07-15-2009 9:46 AM


Re: What IS Christianity?
Hey Oni. How's life?
The motive is not the ideology, the motive is independent of it. The belief in a God is not what causes such henious acts, it's the people who manipulate it and use it to their advantage - just as the belief in certain political ideologies does the same.
I suspect that many religious ideologies do in fact inherently breed destructive motives. Many seem to be founded very much on a "them and us" basis that all but inevitably results in the "true believers" (of watever flavour) railing against the "infidels". Resulting in destructive consequences for humanity at large.
Oni writes:
This not only applies to certain religions but it applies to politics, and I would add, anything that humans take part in. The point being that religion should not be signaled out as the cause of human destruction when political ideologies have caused greater atrocities. In both cases it's not the belief so much as the people within each institution.
All true...but...(there had to be a but didn't there )
Political ideologies can be debated and argued on the basis of reason, pragmatism, cause and effect etc. etc. They can incorporate compromise and even, in theory at least, refutation and subsequent modification. In the long term whole political ideologies can even arguably be tested and overturned. History, both ancient and modern, can teach us much about the different political approaches available to us today. Whether we choose to learn these lessons or take this more rational approach to political ideologies and allegiances in practise is another question. The fact is that we (i.e. humans) all too often don't. But it is in principle possible to take this more rational approach to political differences of opinion.
Religious differences, on the other hand, cannot even in principle be resolved. Conflicting matters of faith will always inevitably boil down to "I'm right". "No, I am right". "I know that I am right". "But I know that I am right" etc. etc. In the case of religious differences the best that can be hoped for is tolerance and that tends to be fairly precarious given the inherently divisive nature and exceptionally strong emotional aspects of faith based thinking.
Why fight religion or even be concerned with it, religion has nothing to do with it. It's the people in the religious groups, just as it's the people in the political groups.
In any practical sense I think I agree entirely with what you are saying here. However I would argue that faith based pursuits, like religion, are inherently divisive whilst political differences, at least in theory, should be able to be resolved without recourse to simple assertion that ones beliefs are inerrant and the use of force to trample on anyone who disagrees.
But, as you suggest, I suspect that human nature dictates that ANY ideology or human pursuit, whether faith based or otherwise, will result in divisiveness and the beliefs of one "tribe" being forcefully imposed on others against their will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by onifre, posted 07-15-2009 9:46 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by onifre, posted 07-15-2009 1:16 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 114 of 531 (515130)
07-15-2009 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by onifre
07-15-2009 1:16 PM


Re: What IS Christianity?
Yep. Good post Oni.
Oni writes:
Hey Straggler, good to see you back in the forum. All is well on this side of the pond. Hope all is well with you and your family.
Cheers!! Was away in Paris for a bit which was fun but not easy with the little fella in tow. More recently been working at the London Olympic site. Been too busy for EvC participation. But things back to normal now.
But I think the same approach can be done for religions. In fact, here at EvC many have claimed to have been "changed" from their held beliefs with arguments from a logical and rational perspective. Off the top of my head I believe Rahvin and Cavediver fit this description. So it's not uncommon to argue someone away from their religious ideologies. The argument may be different than how one would argue against a political ideology, but the results are the same in that the person eventually can see the errors in their ideology.
I think the difference is that people come to realise that faith itself is not a sufficiant basis on which to rationally subscribe to a particular ideology. Abandoning the particular faith based ideology in question itself is secondary to this realisation. This is subtly different from being swayed away from a particular political ideology by means of reasoned argument that an alternative political ideology or form of thinking leads to superior practical results.
As long as faith in a particular ideology remains part of the equation it is impossible to reason people out of that ideology. Religious ideologies are inherently reliant on faith. Political ideologies, at least in theory, are not.
My over-all point is that we can argue the person out of their motive because motive, in religious scriptures, were ascribed by people.
You are right. The differences I am trying to express above are so subtle and of such little consequence in any practical sense that they can be completely ignored.
I guess I just could not bear the thought of agreeing 100% without at least attempting to find some small point of potential disagreement

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by onifre, posted 07-15-2009 1:16 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by onifre, posted 07-16-2009 12:27 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 116 of 531 (515182)
07-16-2009 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by onifre
07-16-2009 12:27 AM


Re: What IS Christianity?
I agree.
Oni writes:
Yea, I see the old arguments have been brought back to life.
C'mon! You didn't really think I had abandoned that one did you? It appears that RAZD and I are on speaking terms again too. Life is peachy!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by onifre, posted 07-16-2009 12:27 AM onifre has not replied

  
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