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Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
ringo
Member (Idle past 526 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 301 of 531 (870936)
01-26-2020 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by Phat
01-26-2020 3:44 PM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
Phat writes:
In other words, you may have free will to ignore God, avoid Spinich, and live in canada. What you dont have is free will to define reality, control the weather, live forever or be able to lift 2000 lbs.
But that isn't the free will we're talking about. You claim we have the free will to choose heaven or hell. I say that's like having the free will to commit suicide or not. It's not a neutral choice.
Phat writes:
When the snake declared that A&E would be as gods, the snake meant (in my opinion) that they would live eternally one way or another...
That isn't how the story tells it. The clear implication of the story is that being godlike meant having the knowledge of good and evil. The fruit was all about the knowledge of good and evil. Not having eternal life was just a consequnce of their actions.
Phat writes:
What you don't have a right to do is define reality.
Indeed. But you're the one who wants to redefine reality - including the reality of the Bible.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Phat, posted 01-26-2020 3:44 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 302 of 531 (870945)
01-26-2020 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by Phat
01-26-2020 3:44 PM


Have you ever, ever actually read the Bible Phat?
Phat writes:
When the snake declared that A&E would be as gods, the snake meant (in my opinion) that they would live eternally one way or another...either as in rebellion or in communion with universal truth and love.
Sheesh Phat.
quote:
Genesis 3
1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
The serpent say that they will know the difference between good and evil.
Now, as expected, you can take pieces parts out of context or actually read what is written. But read it all.
quote:
Genesis 2:
15And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Is there any mention in Genesis 2 or Genesis 3 of communion or universal truth and love?
Now did Adam die the day he ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge?
Did Adam learn to tell the difference between good and evil?
In the story, who told the truth?
Why do you and all the Apologists and all of the CCoI insist on rewtiting the Bible in YOUR image?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Phat, posted 01-26-2020 3:44 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Phat, posted 01-27-2020 3:02 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18455
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 303 of 531 (870973)
01-27-2020 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by jar
01-26-2020 5:29 PM


Re: Have you ever, ever actually read the Bible Phat?
jar writes:
The serpent says that they will know the difference between good and evil.
Not necessarily. They knew of good and they knew of evil. Not everyone can explain the difference. Obviously the serpent wouldn't want them to know what evil was. Think about it. (Unless of course, you don't equate the serpent with evil)
Explain how Adam learned the difference. He certainly did not seem to show it.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by jar, posted 01-26-2020 5:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by jar, posted 01-27-2020 7:57 AM Phat has replied
 Message 305 by frako, posted 01-27-2020 8:04 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 306 by ringo, posted 01-27-2020 10:40 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 304 of 531 (870974)
01-27-2020 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Phat
01-27-2020 3:02 AM


Re: Have you ever, ever actually read the Bible Phat?
Phat writes:
Explain how Adam learned the difference. He certainly did not seem to show it.
After eating Adam like Eve knew they had done wrong and were naked and so they hid.
Phat writes:
Not necessarily. They knew of good and they knew of evil. Not everyone can explain the difference. Obviously the serpent wouldn't want them to know what evil was. Think about it. (Unless of course, you don't equate the serpent with evil)
I simply acknowledge what is wriien in the story. The story does not say they only knew of good and evil but rather in fact the God character says they had become like Gods to KNOW good and evil.
Stop writing in the pieces parts you want to be in the story.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Phat, posted 01-27-2020 3:02 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Phat, posted 01-27-2020 10:47 AM jar has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 305 of 531 (870975)
01-27-2020 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Phat
01-27-2020 3:02 AM


Re: Have you ever, ever actually read the Bible Phat?
Obviously the serpent wouldn't want them to know what evil was.
Of course he would, if you do something wrong and not know its wrong, you are less guilty possibly even not guilty, while if you know something is wrong and do it you are definitively guilty. So if satan wants to fill up hell with gods favorite toys he has to get them to understand good and evil.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Phat, posted 01-27-2020 3:02 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 526 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 306 of 531 (870992)
01-27-2020 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Phat
01-27-2020 3:02 AM


Re: Have you ever, ever actually read the Bible Phat?
Phat writes:
They knew of good and they knew of evil.
No, that is not what it says. You're making that up.
Phat writes:
Obviously the serpent wouldn't want them to know what evil was.
There's nothing obvious about that.
Phat writes:
Unless of course, you don't equate the serpent with evil
Why would you?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Phat, posted 01-27-2020 3:02 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Phat, posted 01-27-2020 11:44 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18455
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 307 of 531 (870993)
01-27-2020 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by jar
01-27-2020 7:57 AM


Re: Have you ever, ever actually read the Bible Phat?
jar writes:
I simply acknowledge what is wriien in the story. The story does not say they only knew of good and evil but rather in fact the God character says they had become like Gods to KNOW good and evil.
Stop writing in the pieces parts you want to be in the story.
Does Genesis then advocate polytheism? Stop and Think. The snake seems to push the issue. Is the snake simply an offstage narrator? A plot device?
jar writes:
After eating Adam like Eve knew they had done wrong and were naked and so they hid.
What was the source of this wrong?
1) The fruit itself
2) Listening to the snake?
3) Disobeying God?
4) All of the above

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by jar, posted 01-27-2020 7:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by jar, posted 01-27-2020 11:32 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 308 of 531 (870998)
01-27-2020 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by Phat
01-27-2020 10:47 AM


Re: Have you ever, ever actually read the Bible Phat?
Phat writes:
Does Genesis then advocate polytheism?
Much of the earlier writings in the Old Testament books acknowledges Polytheism. The issue is even a major point throughout many of the stories that Jehovah was the God of the Jews; "I am the Lord, THY God. That shalt have no other Gods BEFORE me."
Phat writes:
What was the source of this wrong?
1) The fruit itself
2) Listening to the snake?
3) Disobeying God?
4) All of the above
Talk about utter nonsense and irrelevancies. The first example is really stupid. Think Phat. What the serpent said was the truth and in the story acknowledged as being true.
But I think you are still under the really silly idea that the story is really about God or obedience or sin and not about the transition from the earlier nomadic hunter gatherer lifestyle to the latter settled farming lifestyle.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Phat, posted 01-27-2020 10:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Phat, posted 01-30-2020 9:51 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18455
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 309 of 531 (871000)
01-27-2020 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by ringo
01-27-2020 10:40 AM


Re: Have you ever, ever actually read the Bible Phat?
Phat writes:
Obviously the serpent wouldn't want them to know what evil was.
There's nothing obvious about that.
Gen 3:1 writes:
Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
So we need to study more on this.
How The Serpent Became Satan Notably:
quote:
Introduced as the most clever of all of the beasts of the field that YHWH God had made, the serpent in the Garden of Eden is portrayed as just that: a serpent. Satan does not make an appearance in Genesis 2—3, for the simple reason that when the story was written, the concept of the devil had not yet been invented. Explaining the serpent in the Garden of Eden as Satan would have been as foreign a concept to the ancient authors of the text as referring to Ezekiel’s vision as a UFO (but Google Ezekiel’s vision now, and you’ll see that plenty of people today have made that connection!).
Tghis supports jars basic argument that satan was but a tool of God...a prosecuting attorney as it were. In that vein, if the snake could be associated as such, the snake was merely doing its job by pushing the humans to their own natural conclusions. A Prosecutor by definition "fully investigates and exposes" a situation. One could argue that eating the forbidden fruit was not Gods best intention but was foreknown to be inevitable.
Phat writes:
Unless of course, you don't equate the serpent with evil
Why would you? The serpent only appears in conjunction with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Surely you won't argue that the serpent is a wise teacher! Its only job is to question authority and encourage A&E to do the same. You likely fully identify with this character trait.
The snake stimulated the humans to behave according to their natural inclinations, curiosity being chief.
One could argue why the snake was even in the garden. After all, did God not view everything he created as "good"? Critics may argue, however, that in order to allow humans to have free will, all inclinations must be allowed expression in the human mind.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by ringo, posted 01-27-2020 10:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by ringo, posted 01-27-2020 11:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 311 by jar, posted 01-27-2020 12:24 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 526 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 310 of 531 (871001)
01-27-2020 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Phat
01-27-2020 11:44 AM


Re: Have you ever, ever actually read the Bible Phat?
Phat writes:
Surely you won't argue that the serpent is a wise teacher!
Why not? Adam and Eve followed his "teaching" and they became more like God. That sounds like a pretty good "teaching" to me.
Phat writes:
Its only job is to question authority and encourage A&E to do the same.
Isn't that what teaching is all about?
Phat writes:
The snake stimulated the humans to behave according to their natural inclinations, curiosity being chief.
You need to stop thinking of the snake as an entity. The snake character reflects the human's natural inclination toward curiosity. What the snake said was what Eve was thinking.
Phat writes:
One could argue why the snake was even in the garden. After all, did God not view everything he created as "good"?
Bingo.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Phat, posted 01-27-2020 11:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 311 of 531 (871009)
01-27-2020 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Phat
01-27-2020 11:44 AM


Re: Have you ever, ever actually read the Bible Phat?
Phat writes:
After all, did God not view everything he created as "good"?
Full stop Phat. Once again you are mixing up pieces parts from two totally unrelated stories written hundreds or thousands of years apart by entirely different cultures.
Genesis 1 has absolutely nothing to do with the much older tales that make up Genesis 2&3. You are trying to conflate Gone With the Wind with the White Seal.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Phat, posted 01-27-2020 11:44 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by Phat, posted 01-30-2020 6:48 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18455
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 312 of 531 (871208)
01-30-2020 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by jar
01-27-2020 12:24 PM


Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the uncapitalized one is!)
jar writes:
Once again you are mixing up pieces parts from two totally unrelated stories written hundreds or thousands of years apart by entirely different cultures.
I have trouble believing in the thrust of your basic argument. I believe that God exists, was fully internalized in the character of Jesus Christ, and interacts with humanity.
The reason that I believe this is not entirely due to the indoctrination of religious dogma by the churches that I have attended. When I had my "born again" experience, I distinctly remembered feeling a definite change. In addition, I saw confirming behavioral changes of others who had recently "found God through Jesus".
So what evidence (subjective or objective) do I now have? Well, to be honest, I observe that though I initially changed quite dramatically and permanently in February of 1993, I was not transformed as much as I would have been taught to expect. In many ways, my old sinful habits and attitudes remain.
Critics (apologetic critics) would say that I never wanted to change as much as my conscience may have felt was necessary and that this type of 100% commitment is what is needed and observed far too infrequently in "transformed Christians" today. Nevertheless, I refuse to throw away the idea that Communion with God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit is a myth. You do make an argument that the Bible was written, edited, and redacted by men. I fail to see how anyone could actually call themselves a believer if they attach no reference to other humans interacting with God.
I also don't buy into the idea that God is universally described through differing religions. Your argument makes God as being entirely a product of man's imagination and allows no narrative to be preserved as authoritative and indicative of an actual encounter with the Creator of all seen and unseen.
I believe that this solo Creator related to humanity--in actuality--through the human character of Jesus Christ. GOD is not understood fully by any (other) human than Jesus. Even as I type this I find that my arguments here at EvC fall on deaf ears. Seems that everyone here either rejects the idea of God, has once experienced it (similar to how I did, they claim) and have thrown the belief away.
The reason that I continually argue with you about this stuff is that I fail to see what you mean by claiming belief. I claimed to be a believer due to the subjective experience of internal change and awareness. While I have studied comparative Christian beliefs more than I used to do, I can't really let go of my personal belief that I at one time met God. I don't really think that you ever felt a "transformation" or an internal awareness apart from feeling a sense of responsibility and duty to a cause that your parents supported and which Socratic masters elaborated on and challenged.
If true, I then ask myself if Christians who lack such experiences as I had are in any way less authentic or genuine than I and others who would unanimously agree with the transformative "born again" argument are.
It's just that if you break the bible down as an entirely human project, and leave GOD defined to be aloof and unknowable, similar to how Islam sees Allah, you are not as close to such a GOD as are those with the transformative experience. \
\Perhaps you will reinforce your reasoning by asking the ongoing question as to how one would know?
I hate that question.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by jar, posted 01-27-2020 12:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by jar, posted 01-30-2020 8:13 AM Phat has replied
 Message 319 by ringo, posted 01-30-2020 10:43 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 313 of 531 (871213)
01-30-2020 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by Phat
01-30-2020 6:48 AM


Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the uncapitalized one is!)
You quoted a piece of what I had said and then run on and on and on without ever addressing what you quoted or the issue raised by that quote.
Phat writes:
Perhaps you will reinforce your reasoning by asking the ongoing question as to how one would know?
I hate that question.
Why do you hate that question?
Phat writes:
The reason that I continually argue with you about this stuff is that I fail to see what you mean by claiming belief.
Really, or perhaps you simply hate my oft repeated explanation of what I believe?
Do you find the very existence of my belief unnerving?
Do you hate those questions as well?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Phat, posted 01-30-2020 6:48 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Phat, posted 01-30-2020 9:16 AM jar has replied
 Message 315 by Phat, posted 01-30-2020 9:19 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18455
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 314 of 531 (871217)
01-30-2020 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 313 by jar
01-30-2020 8:13 AM


Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the uncapitalized one is!)
jar writes:
Why do you hate that question?
It implies that one would never commit to believing based on a strong feeling or experience and would simply act like an observational scientist, forever taking notes and overthinking what they are experiencing. I could see a row of sheep lined up, jar among them. The pastor would invite them all to say the sinners prayer and accept Jesus into their heart. For all but one, tears flow, emotions surge, and contentment which critics would call confirmation bias settles over them as they make their way back to their seats, satisfied that they made the right connection. All but one. Little jar settles in his seat and begins asking questions to himself.
  • I did note that I felt emotional as well, but how do I know that what I felt was God?
  • Why must Jesus be the only option? Can't I meet Coyote and Rabbit? I always did enjoy Indian Folklore!
  • These oldtimers in this church sure seem to be acting sanctimonious and knowledgeable but I don't think any of them has read the bible!
    Thus you believe in the idea that you can fulfill your charge to do what the character in the book told you to do and can feel somewhat reassured that you are at least attempting to fulfill the obligations in this club. Yet you put knowing God out of reach due to your own logical conclusions.
    jar writes:
    Really, or perhaps you simply hate my oft-repeated explanation of what I believe?
    Do you find the very existence of my belief unnerving?
    No, I don't find disdain for your belief and most certainly support your right to have it. What I dislike is your continual attack and ridicule of the other Christians not in your club who believe the traditional apologetic Romans Road belief and who have unquestioningly accepted Jesus into their heart.
    I don't quite get what you dislike about Biblical Christianity. I suppose I could search through your older EvC posts and get the answer, however.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 313 by jar, posted 01-30-2020 8:13 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 316 by jar, posted 01-30-2020 9:36 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18455
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 315 of 531 (871218)
    01-30-2020 9:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 313 by jar
    01-30-2020 8:13 AM


    Re: Discussing GOD,God, and god.(whoever the uncapitalized one is!)
    jar writes:
    Do you hate those questions as well?
    No, I actually like it when you ask questions. I dislike it when you keep telling me I am off-topic or churning out word salad when you likely know darn well what my point is.
    Questions make me think.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 313 by jar, posted 01-30-2020 8:13 AM jar has not replied

      
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