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Author | Topic: Charismatic Chaos | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But that isn't the free will we're talking about. You claim we have the free will to choose heaven or hell. I say that's like having the free will to commit suicide or not. It's not a neutral choice.
In other words, you may have free will to ignore God, avoid Spinich, and live in canada. What you dont have is free will to define reality, control the weather, live forever or be able to lift 2000 lbs. Phat writes:
That isn't how the story tells it. The clear implication of the story is that being godlike meant having the knowledge of good and evil. The fruit was all about the knowledge of good and evil. Not having eternal life was just a consequnce of their actions.
When the snake declared that A&E would be as gods, the snake meant (in my opinion) that they would live eternally one way or another... Phat writes:
Indeed. But you're the one who wants to redefine reality - including the reality of the Bible. What you don't have a right to do is define reality."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: When the snake declared that A&E would be as gods, the snake meant (in my opinion) that they would live eternally one way or another...either as in rebellion or in communion with universal truth and love. Sheesh Phat.
quote: The serpent say that they will know the difference between good and evil. Now, as expected, you can take pieces parts out of context or actually read what is written. But read it all.
quote: Is there any mention in Genesis 2 or Genesis 3 of communion or universal truth and love? Now did Adam die the day he ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge? Did Adam learn to tell the difference between good and evil? In the story, who told the truth? Why do you and all the Apologists and all of the CCoI insist on rewtiting the Bible in YOUR image?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: Not necessarily. They knew of good and they knew of evil. Not everyone can explain the difference. Obviously the serpent wouldn't want them to know what evil was. Think about it. (Unless of course, you don't equate the serpent with evil) The serpent says that they will know the difference between good and evil. Explain how Adam learned the difference. He certainly did not seem to show it.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Explain how Adam learned the difference. He certainly did not seem to show it. After eating Adam like Eve knew they had done wrong and were naked and so they hid.
Phat writes: Not necessarily. They knew of good and they knew of evil. Not everyone can explain the difference. Obviously the serpent wouldn't want them to know what evil was. Think about it. (Unless of course, you don't equate the serpent with evil) I simply acknowledge what is wriien in the story. The story does not say they only knew of good and evil but rather in fact the God character says they had become like Gods to KNOW good and evil. Stop writing in the pieces parts you want to be in the story.
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frako Member (Idle past 326 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
Obviously the serpent wouldn't want them to know what evil was. Of course he would, if you do something wrong and not know its wrong, you are less guilty possibly even not guilty, while if you know something is wrong and do it you are definitively guilty. So if satan wants to fill up hell with gods favorite toys he has to get them to understand good and evil. Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No, that is not what it says. You're making that up.
They knew of good and they knew of evil. Phat writes:
There's nothing obvious about that.
Obviously the serpent wouldn't want them to know what evil was. Phat writes:
Why would you? Unless of course, you don't equate the serpent with evil"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: Does Genesis then advocate polytheism? Stop and Think. The snake seems to push the issue. Is the snake simply an offstage narrator? A plot device?
I simply acknowledge what is wriien in the story. The story does not say they only knew of good and evil but rather in fact the God character says they had become like Gods to KNOW good and evil. Stop writing in the pieces parts you want to be in the story.jar writes: What was the source of this wrong? After eating Adam like Eve knew they had done wrong and were naked and so they hid.1) The fruit itself 2) Listening to the snake? 3) Disobeying God? 4) All of the above The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Does Genesis then advocate polytheism? Much of the earlier writings in the Old Testament books acknowledges Polytheism. The issue is even a major point throughout many of the stories that Jehovah was the God of the Jews; "I am the Lord, THY God. That shalt have no other Gods BEFORE me."
Phat writes: What was the source of this wrong?1) The fruit itself 2) Listening to the snake? 3) Disobeying God? 4) All of the above Talk about utter nonsense and irrelevancies. The first example is really stupid. Think Phat. What the serpent said was the truth and in the story acknowledged as being true. But I think you are still under the really silly idea that the story is really about God or obedience or sin and not about the transition from the earlier nomadic hunter gatherer lifestyle to the latter settled farming lifestyle.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes:
Obviously the serpent wouldn't want them to know what evil was.There's nothing obvious about that.
Gen 3:1 writes: So we need to study more on this.
Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.How The Serpent Became Satan Notably: quote:Tghis supports jars basic argument that satan was but a tool of God...a prosecuting attorney as it were. In that vein, if the snake could be associated as such, the snake was merely doing its job by pushing the humans to their own natural conclusions. A Prosecutor by definition "fully investigates and exposes" a situation. One could argue that eating the forbidden fruit was not Gods best intention but was foreknown to be inevitable. Phat writes:
Why would you? The serpent only appears in conjunction with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Surely you won't argue that the serpent is a wise teacher! Its only job is to question authority and encourage A&E to do the same. You likely fully identify with this character trait. Unless of course, you don't equate the serpent with evil The snake stimulated the humans to behave according to their natural inclinations, curiosity being chief. One could argue why the snake was even in the garden. After all, did God not view everything he created as "good"? Critics may argue, however, that in order to allow humans to have free will, all inclinations must be allowed expression in the human mind. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Why not? Adam and Eve followed his "teaching" and they became more like God. That sounds like a pretty good "teaching" to me.
Surely you won't argue that the serpent is a wise teacher! Phat writes:
Isn't that what teaching is all about?
Its only job is to question authority and encourage A&E to do the same. Phat writes:
You need to stop thinking of the snake as an entity. The snake character reflects the human's natural inclination toward curiosity. What the snake said was what Eve was thinking.
The snake stimulated the humans to behave according to their natural inclinations, curiosity being chief. Phat writes:
Bingo. One could argue why the snake was even in the garden. After all, did God not view everything he created as "good"?"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: After all, did God not view everything he created as "good"? Full stop Phat. Once again you are mixing up pieces parts from two totally unrelated stories written hundreds or thousands of years apart by entirely different cultures. Genesis 1 has absolutely nothing to do with the much older tales that make up Genesis 2&3. You are trying to conflate Gone With the Wind with the White Seal.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: I have trouble believing in the thrust of your basic argument. I believe that God exists, was fully internalized in the character of Jesus Christ, and interacts with humanity. Once again you are mixing up pieces parts from two totally unrelated stories written hundreds or thousands of years apart by entirely different cultures. The reason that I believe this is not entirely due to the indoctrination of religious dogma by the churches that I have attended. When I had my "born again" experience, I distinctly remembered feeling a definite change. In addition, I saw confirming behavioral changes of others who had recently "found God through Jesus". So what evidence (subjective or objective) do I now have? Well, to be honest, I observe that though I initially changed quite dramatically and permanently in February of 1993, I was not transformed as much as I would have been taught to expect. In many ways, my old sinful habits and attitudes remain. Critics (apologetic critics) would say that I never wanted to change as much as my conscience may have felt was necessary and that this type of 100% commitment is what is needed and observed far too infrequently in "transformed Christians" today. Nevertheless, I refuse to throw away the idea that Communion with God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit is a myth. You do make an argument that the Bible was written, edited, and redacted by men. I fail to see how anyone could actually call themselves a believer if they attach no reference to other humans interacting with God. I also don't buy into the idea that God is universally described through differing religions. Your argument makes God as being entirely a product of man's imagination and allows no narrative to be preserved as authoritative and indicative of an actual encounter with the Creator of all seen and unseen. I believe that this solo Creator related to humanity--in actuality--through the human character of Jesus Christ. GOD is not understood fully by any (other) human than Jesus. Even as I type this I find that my arguments here at EvC fall on deaf ears. Seems that everyone here either rejects the idea of God, has once experienced it (similar to how I did, they claim) and have thrown the belief away. The reason that I continually argue with you about this stuff is that I fail to see what you mean by claiming belief. I claimed to be a believer due to the subjective experience of internal change and awareness. While I have studied comparative Christian beliefs more than I used to do, I can't really let go of my personal belief that I at one time met God. I don't really think that you ever felt a "transformation" or an internal awareness apart from feeling a sense of responsibility and duty to a cause that your parents supported and which Socratic masters elaborated on and challenged. If true, I then ask myself if Christians who lack such experiences as I had are in any way less authentic or genuine than I and others who would unanimously agree with the transformative "born again" argument are. It's just that if you break the bible down as an entirely human project, and leave GOD defined to be aloof and unknowable, similar to how Islam sees Allah, you are not as close to such a GOD as are those with the transformative experience. \\Perhaps you will reinforce your reasoning by asking the ongoing question as to how one would know? I hate that question.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You quoted a piece of what I had said and then run on and on and on without ever addressing what you quoted or the issue raised by that quote.
Phat writes: Perhaps you will reinforce your reasoning by asking the ongoing question as to how one would know? I hate that question. Why do you hate that question?
Phat writes: The reason that I continually argue with you about this stuff is that I fail to see what you mean by claiming belief. Really, or perhaps you simply hate my oft repeated explanation of what I believe? Do you find the very existence of my belief unnerving? Do you hate those questions as well?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: It implies that one would never commit to believing based on a strong feeling or experience and would simply act like an observational scientist, forever taking notes and overthinking what they are experiencing. I could see a row of sheep lined up, jar among them. The pastor would invite them all to say the sinners prayer and accept Jesus into their heart. For all but one, tears flow, emotions surge, and contentment which critics would call confirmation bias settles over them as they make their way back to their seats, satisfied that they made the right connection. All but one. Little jar settles in his seat and begins asking questions to himself.
Why do you hate that question? Thus you believe in the idea that you can fulfill your charge to do what the character in the book told you to do and can feel somewhat reassured that you are at least attempting to fulfill the obligations in this club. Yet you put knowing God out of reach due to your own logical conclusions.
jar writes:
No, I don't find disdain for your belief and most certainly support your right to have it. What I dislike is your continual attack and ridicule of the other Christians not in your club who believe the traditional apologetic Romans Road belief and who have unquestioningly accepted Jesus into their heart. Really, or perhaps you simply hate my oft-repeated explanation of what I believe? Do you find the very existence of my belief unnerving? I don't quite get what you dislike about Biblical Christianity. I suppose I could search through your older EvC posts and get the answer, however. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: No, I actually like it when you ask questions. I dislike it when you keep telling me I am off-topic or churning out word salad when you likely know darn well what my point is. Do you hate those questions as well? Questions make me think.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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