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Author | Topic: Charismatic Chaos | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Wrong. I once bought into all of the same nonsense that you buy into. The difference is that I realized it was worthless so I returned it and got my money back. Of course, you never have bought into the idea that God allowed Satan to exist only to validate the concept of free will. The whole idea of Satan being "the bad guy" is nonsense. And the whole idea of free will is useless.
Phat writes:
Or maybe He's trying to cure you of those beliefs. I have a belief that God uses other points of view and beliefs in order to challenge and strengthen my own."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Heaven must be REALLY, REALLY LOUD! We need to be converted, actually changed in our nature, in order to be suited to the environment of heaven and God's presence...."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It wasn't one flash of inspiration like you guys seem to want. It was years of mind-numbing stupidity.
What specifically clued you into the worthlessness of the product? Phat writes:
What deity? If somebody claims there's an all-powerful deity and a dangerous "enemy", why would I believe anything they say?
Was it the Deity Himself... Phat writes:
I'm not too concerned about hypocrisy. It's the stupidity of the theology that bothers me. (And I think that deep down you must know how stupid the theology is because you consistently refuse to defend it.) ...or was it other believers being hypocritical?"If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's the kind of bullshit that drove me away from Christianity.
God, if God exists needs no defending from me. Phat writes:
I wouldn't say its irrational. I'd say it's unfounded in reality.
Why is the concept of God in general irrational? Phat writes:
You should ask yourself the honest question: Why do so many millions of people disagree with your theology?
Why are so many millions of people somehow deceived... Phat writes:
You already know the answer to that. Critical thinking and evidence work. They produced the computer you're looking at, the car you drive, etc.
...where ringo of Saskatchewan one day concludes that critical thinking and evidence suddenly appear so shiningly logical and obvious? Phat writes:
Why would you prefer believing in something you don't understand? Seems to me that you preferred believing in something that you could somewhat fully understand."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I didn't say it was. Why is the concept of angels so glaringly illogical? The idea of a good God creating evil angels is glaringly stupid.
Phat writes:
Because he would have known from the beginning that he couldn't win.
And why is the idea that one of them would decide to drink his own Kool-Aid rather than the corporate version so preposterous? Phat writes:
Of course. Always, always ,always think for yourself. Always. Always. Always. How can you even dispute that? He was like you. He decided to think for himself rather than listen to the Boss."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You contradict yourself.
Every thought of our imagination is human....You need to stop convincing yourself that its simply mythological. Phat writes:
Then why is your concept of it better than a non-believer's? This universe and its possibilities are so much greater than our capacity to conceive of."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You like to throw in that word "collectively". I wonder why, since you're the one who believes that God communes with you individually.
The bottom line is that we collectively need further lessons. Phat writes:
The lesson that you should be taking from that is that there is help. We do do things collectively, i.e. not relying on God. Perhaps this shows one of my own human flaws---that I have always relied on help my entire life to get out of the worst jams---many of which I myself created."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Not really. We feed our children. We take care of the old and sick.
The evidence is pretty clear that humans by nature are always looking out for #1. Phat writes:
Well, it would be stupid to create imperfect humans and then blame them for being imperfect. And it's stupid to believe that God is going to "save" us from Himself.
OK...stupidity like how? That original (or inborn) sin is stupid? Phat writes:
Your feelings can't be trusted.
The reason I believe it is because I felt it from both entities. Phat writes:
No it doesn't.
It makes much more sense for an uncaused first cause to be God than it does simply chemicals. Phat writes:
And Intelligent Design is really, really stupid. It's a creationist scam - and you're about two inches from becoming a full-blown creationist as crazy as Faith.
The whole reason Intelligent Design was named as such is because of this. Phat writes:
It is.
You seem to think that reality is "founded" on human discovery and verification. Phat writes:
That's because you define your "spiritual realm" in that way. The problem with it being "beyond evidence" is that it's then categorized along with everything else that is unevidenced - the Tooth Fairy, unicorns, the Flintsones.... Without evidence, you can't distinguish silly, childish stories from anything else.
Evidence is great for what its worth....in material terms. Evidence can verify your chemicals. Evidence cannot verify a spiritual realm. Phat writes:
It isn't deep down. It's right on the surface and in plain English. I reject your God for the same reason you reject the Tooth Fairy and unicorns and the Flintstones and Zeus.
I think that deep down you dismiss the possibility of a spiritual realm because you can't put a timestamp of Evidence on it. Phat writes:
First, you might try quoting that passage honestly: ringo writes:
"Many are called yet few are chosen. Narrow is the path to righteousness and few find it. Broad is the path towards independence... You should ask yourself the honest question: Why do so many millions of people disagree with your theology?quote:I don't know where you get the idea that independence is akin to destruction. What translation are you using? Second, you might try looking at the conrtext, e.g. the next verse: quote:That would be your apologists. And it would also be you and Faith. Phat writes:
Do you want to think that through again? Critical thinking - or any other kind of thinking - is in the realm of the mind.
ringo writes:
Yes, they produce material well being. We are talking about the realm of the mind and philosophy. Critical thinking and evidence work. They produced the computer you're looking at, the car you drive, etc. Phat writes:
And the Tooth Fairy and unicorns and the Flintstones and Zeus. Why do you make one exception?
Perhaps since we have no math formula to allow God to be properly hypothetical, you simply threw the concept away. Phat writes:
Of course. Yes = no is illogical.
Is the idea of a "good" God creating evil (or the possibility of evil) illogical as well? Phat writes:
Pretty often. I, for one couldn't beat Carl Lewis and wouldn't try. Because he would have known from the beginning that he couldn't win.How many times have you seen participants line up in a race with Carl Lewis and then all decide they can't win? But why do you lower your God to just another participant? There are certainly people who could beat Carl Lewis today. Do you really want to make your God somebody who could be beaten by Satan tomorrow?
Phat writes:
Well, we're pretty sure that we ourselves exist. And we're pretty sure that we have to do things ourselves because God isn't doing them for us. So there's no practical reason to think that God exists. So what led you to think that God didn't exist? Seems a bit as if we replaced Him with ourselves."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But we have no reason to think that's true.
The problem here is that God is God before humans even were. Phat writes:
A "thus" that comes from an empty statement is equally empty. Thus, we cannot limit God as we do our other unevidenced creations. As I have pointed out, without evidence to distinguish one made-up idea from another, there is no way to distinguish one made-up idea from another."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
False is the default. Innocent until proven guilty, no unicorns without evidence, etc. Otherwise we'd be up to our ears in possibilities with no way to thin the herd.
What reasons do we have to think its false? Phat writes:
Quit saying that. It's stupid. If there was any other standard we'd be using it.
Upon which I would say to quit using evidence as the only standard. Phat writes:
That's my question to you. Every argument you use against Zeus can be used against your God.
How would we know which God turned out to be real, if any? Phat writes:
There's nothing obvious about that, or even sensible.
Obviously the One who would want relationship with humanity---to become reconnected. Phat writes:
Species don't make mistakes. Only individuals make mistakes. Our major mistake as a species was disconnecting. And the whole "disconnection" thing is just another lie told by apologists. The whole Bible is about people connecting with God."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
That's pretty much the whole truth. The only Satan is us - but us including Iran of course. Iran calls us "The Great Satan"...is there any truth to that?"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
It's nonsensical in the context of the God that YOU have created. A logical God could be created and logical angels could be created. But you describe a supposedly "all-powerful" God - who has a powerful rival. So why is the idea of an angel who freely (and finally) chose to rebel a nonsensical idea? ??? That's like saying Bill Gates has all of the money in the world - and Elon Musk has some money too. It's not consistent, not logical.
Phat writes:
You should stop trying to predict what I'm going to say. Your time would be better spent thinking through your own position.
You must answer by saying "because he would know from the start he couldn't win"... Phat writes:
Again, that statement is self-contradictory. It's like saying a prisoner has complete freedom within his cell.
Within limits, we have free will. Phat writes:
False. Good and evil are absolutes, however."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But that isn't the free will we're talking about. You claim we have the free will to choose heaven or hell. I say that's like having the free will to commit suicide or not. It's not a neutral choice.
In other words, you may have free will to ignore God, avoid Spinich, and live in canada. What you dont have is free will to define reality, control the weather, live forever or be able to lift 2000 lbs. Phat writes:
That isn't how the story tells it. The clear implication of the story is that being godlike meant having the knowledge of good and evil. The fruit was all about the knowledge of good and evil. Not having eternal life was just a consequnce of their actions.
When the snake declared that A&E would be as gods, the snake meant (in my opinion) that they would live eternally one way or another... Phat writes:
Indeed. But you're the one who wants to redefine reality - including the reality of the Bible. What you don't have a right to do is define reality."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No, that is not what it says. You're making that up.
They knew of good and they knew of evil. Phat writes:
There's nothing obvious about that.
Obviously the serpent wouldn't want them to know what evil was. Phat writes:
Why would you? Unless of course, you don't equate the serpent with evil"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Why not? Adam and Eve followed his "teaching" and they became more like God. That sounds like a pretty good "teaching" to me.
Surely you won't argue that the serpent is a wise teacher! Phat writes:
Isn't that what teaching is all about?
Its only job is to question authority and encourage A&E to do the same. Phat writes:
You need to stop thinking of the snake as an entity. The snake character reflects the human's natural inclination toward curiosity. What the snake said was what Eve was thinking.
The snake stimulated the humans to behave according to their natural inclinations, curiosity being chief. Phat writes:
Bingo. One could argue why the snake was even in the garden. After all, did God not view everything he created as "good"?"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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