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Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 231 of 531 (869109)
12-23-2019 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Phat
12-22-2019 4:12 PM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
Phat writes:
Of course, you never have bought into the idea that God allowed Satan to exist only to validate the concept of free will.
Wrong. I once bought into all of the same nonsense that you buy into. The difference is that I realized it was worthless so I returned it and got my money back.
The whole idea of Satan being "the bad guy" is nonsense. And the whole idea of free will is useless.
Phat writes:
I have a belief that God uses other points of view and beliefs in order to challenge and strengthen my own.
Or maybe He's trying to cure you of those beliefs.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 12-22-2019 4:12 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Phat, posted 12-23-2019 11:40 AM ringo has replied
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 12-23-2019 12:14 PM ringo has replied
 Message 298 by Phat, posted 01-26-2020 12:23 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 232 of 531 (869110)
12-23-2019 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Faith
12-22-2019 6:10 PM


Re: True Conversion
Faith writes:
We need to be converted, actually changed in our nature, in order to be suited to the environment of heaven and God's presence....
Heaven must be REALLY, REALLY LOUD!

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Faith, posted 12-22-2019 6:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 236 of 531 (869117)
12-23-2019 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Phat
12-23-2019 11:40 AM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
Phat writes:
What specifically clued you into the worthlessness of the product?
It wasn't one flash of inspiration like you guys seem to want. It was years of mind-numbing stupidity.
Phat writes:
Was it the Deity Himself...
What deity? If somebody claims there's an all-powerful deity and a dangerous "enemy", why would I believe anything they say?
Phat writes:
...or was it other believers being hypocritical?
I'm not too concerned about hypocrisy. It's the stupidity of the theology that bothers me. (And I think that deep down you must know how stupid the theology is because you consistently refuse to defend it.)

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Phat, posted 12-23-2019 11:40 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Phat, posted 12-23-2019 12:06 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 239 of 531 (869120)
12-23-2019 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Phat
12-23-2019 12:06 PM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
Phat writes:
God, if God exists needs no defending from me.
That's the kind of bullshit that drove me away from Christianity.
Phat writes:
Why is the concept of God in general irrational?
I wouldn't say its irrational. I'd say it's unfounded in reality.
Phat writes:
Why are so many millions of people somehow deceived...
You should ask yourself the honest question: Why do so many millions of people disagree with your theology?
Phat writes:
...where ringo of Saskatchewan one day concludes that critical thinking and evidence suddenly appear so shiningly logical and obvious?
You already know the answer to that. Critical thinking and evidence work. They produced the computer you're looking at, the car you drive, etc.
Phat writes:
Seems to me that you preferred believing in something that you could somewhat fully understand.
Why would you prefer believing in something you don't understand?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Phat, posted 12-23-2019 12:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 240 of 531 (869121)
12-23-2019 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Phat
12-23-2019 12:14 PM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
Phat writes:
Why is the concept of angels so glaringly illogical?
I didn't say it was.
The idea of a good God creating evil angels is glaringly stupid.
Phat writes:
And why is the idea that one of them would decide to drink his own Kool-Aid rather than the corporate version so preposterous?
Because he would have known from the beginning that he couldn't win.
Phat writes:
He was like you. He decided to think for himself rather than listen to the Boss.
Of course. Always, always ,always think for yourself. Always. Always. Always. How can you even dispute that?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 12-23-2019 12:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Phat, posted 12-28-2019 3:28 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 254 of 531 (869151)
12-24-2019 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Phat
12-24-2019 4:26 AM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
Phat writes:
Every thought of our imagination is human....You need to stop convincing yourself that its simply mythological.
You contradict yourself.
Phat writes:
This universe and its possibilities are so much greater than our capacity to conceive of.
Then why is your concept of it better than a non-believer's?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Phat, posted 12-24-2019 4:26 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 255 of 531 (869152)
12-24-2019 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Phat
12-24-2019 8:58 AM


Re: Phat, you really don't read what you write!
Phat writes:
The bottom line is that we collectively need further lessons.
You like to throw in that word "collectively". I wonder why, since you're the one who believes that God communes with you individually.
Phat writes:
Perhaps this shows one of my own human flaws---that I have always relied on help my entire life to get out of the worst jams---many of which I myself created.
The lesson that you should be taking from that is that there is help. We do do things collectively, i.e. not relying on God.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Phat, posted 12-24-2019 8:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 284 of 531 (869374)
12-29-2019 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Phat
12-28-2019 3:28 PM


Re: Getting Around To Answering Ringos Questions
Phat writes:
The evidence is pretty clear that humans by nature are always looking out for #1.
Not really. We feed our children. We take care of the old and sick.
Phat writes:
OK...stupidity like how? That original (or inborn) sin is stupid?
Well, it would be stupid to create imperfect humans and then blame them for being imperfect. And it's stupid to believe that God is going to "save" us from Himself.
Phat writes:
The reason I believe it is because I felt it from both entities.
Your feelings can't be trusted.
Phat writes:
It makes much more sense for an uncaused first cause to be God than it does simply chemicals.
No it doesn't.
Phat writes:
The whole reason Intelligent Design was named as such is because of this.
And Intelligent Design is really, really stupid. It's a creationist scam - and you're about two inches from becoming a full-blown creationist as crazy as Faith.
Phat writes:
You seem to think that reality is "founded" on human discovery and verification.
It is.
Phat writes:
Evidence is great for what its worth....in material terms. Evidence can verify your chemicals. Evidence cannot verify a spiritual realm.
That's because you define your "spiritual realm" in that way. The problem with it being "beyond evidence" is that it's then categorized along with everything else that is unevidenced - the Tooth Fairy, unicorns, the Flintsones.... Without evidence, you can't distinguish silly, childish stories from anything else.
Phat writes:
I think that deep down you dismiss the possibility of a spiritual realm because you can't put a timestamp of Evidence on it.
It isn't deep down. It's right on the surface and in plain English. I reject your God for the same reason you reject the Tooth Fairy and unicorns and the Flintstones and Zeus.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
You should ask yourself the honest question: Why do so many millions of people disagree with your theology?
"Many are called yet few are chosen. Narrow is the path to righteousness and few find it. Broad is the path towards independence...
First, you might try quoting that passage honestly:
quote:
Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
I don't know where you get the idea that independence is akin to destruction. What translation are you using?
Second, you might try looking at the conrtext, e.g. the next verse:
quote:
Matthew 7:15-16 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits.
That would be your apologists. And it would also be you and Faith.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Critical thinking and evidence work. They produced the computer you're looking at, the car you drive, etc.
Yes, they produce material well being. We are talking about the realm of the mind and philosophy.
Do you want to think that through again? Critical thinking - or any other kind of thinking - is in the realm of the mind.
Phat writes:
Perhaps since we have no math formula to allow God to be properly hypothetical, you simply threw the concept away.
And the Tooth Fairy and unicorns and the Flintstones and Zeus. Why do you make one exception?
Phat writes:
Is the idea of a "good" God creating evil (or the possibility of evil) illogical as well?
Of course. Yes = no is illogical.
Phat writes:
Because he would have known from the beginning that he couldn't win.
How many times have you seen participants line up in a race with Carl Lewis and then all decide they can't win?
Pretty often. I, for one couldn't beat Carl Lewis and wouldn't try.
But why do you lower your God to just another participant? There are certainly people who could beat Carl Lewis today. Do you really want to make your God somebody who could be beaten by Satan tomorrow?
Phat writes:
So what led you to think that God didn't exist? Seems a bit as if we replaced Him with ourselves.
Well, we're pretty sure that we ourselves exist. And we're pretty sure that we have to do things ourselves because God isn't doing them for us. So there's no practical reason to think that God exists.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Phat, posted 12-28-2019 3:28 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 2:44 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 286 of 531 (869384)
12-29-2019 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Phat
12-29-2019 2:44 PM


Re: Getting Around To Answering Ringos Questions
Phat writes:
The problem here is that God is God before humans even were.
But we have no reason to think that's true.
Phat writes:
Thus, we cannot limit God as we do our other unevidenced creations.
A "thus" that comes from an empty statement is equally empty.
As I have pointed out, without evidence to distinguish one made-up idea from another, there is no way to distinguish one made-up idea from another.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 2:44 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 3:24 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 290 of 531 (869389)
12-29-2019 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Phat
12-29-2019 3:24 PM


Re: Getting Around To Answering Ringos Questions
Phat writes:
What reasons do we have to think its false?
False is the default. Innocent until proven guilty, no unicorns without evidence, etc. Otherwise we'd be up to our ears in possibilities with no way to thin the herd.
Phat writes:
Upon which I would say to quit using evidence as the only standard.
Quit saying that. It's stupid. If there was any other standard we'd be using it.
Phat writes:
How would we know which God turned out to be real, if any?
That's my question to you. Every argument you use against Zeus can be used against your God.
Phat writes:
Obviously the One who would want relationship with humanity---to become reconnected.
There's nothing obvious about that, or even sensible.
Phat writes:
Our major mistake as a species was disconnecting.
Species don't make mistakes. Only individuals make mistakes.
And the whole "disconnection" thing is just another lie told by apologists. The whole Bible is about people connecting with God.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 3:24 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Phat, posted 01-21-2020 4:47 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 297 of 531 (870547)
01-21-2020 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Phat
01-21-2020 4:47 PM


Re: Getting Around To Answering Ringos Questions
Phat writes:
Iran calls us "The Great Satan"...is there any truth to that?
That's pretty much the whole truth. The only Satan is us - but us including Iran of course.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Phat, posted 01-21-2020 4:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 299 of 531 (870912)
01-26-2020 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Phat
01-26-2020 12:23 PM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
Phat writes:
So why is the idea of an angel who freely (and finally) chose to rebel a nonsensical idea?
It's nonsensical in the context of the God that YOU have created. A logical God could be created and logical angels could be created. But you describe a supposedly "all-powerful" God - who has a powerful rival.
???
That's like saying Bill Gates has all of the money in the world - and Elon Musk has some money too. It's not consistent, not logical.
Phat writes:
You must answer by saying "because he would know from the start he couldn't win"...
You should stop trying to predict what I'm going to say. Your time would be better spent thinking through your own position.
Phat writes:
Within limits, we have free will.
Again, that statement is self-contradictory. It's like saying a prisoner has complete freedom within his cell.
Phat writes:
Good and evil are absolutes, however.
False.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Phat, posted 01-26-2020 12:23 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Phat, posted 01-26-2020 3:44 PM ringo has replied
 Message 507 by Phat, posted 02-17-2020 3:10 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 301 of 531 (870936)
01-26-2020 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by Phat
01-26-2020 3:44 PM


Re: The spirit was strong on this one
Phat writes:
In other words, you may have free will to ignore God, avoid Spinich, and live in canada. What you dont have is free will to define reality, control the weather, live forever or be able to lift 2000 lbs.
But that isn't the free will we're talking about. You claim we have the free will to choose heaven or hell. I say that's like having the free will to commit suicide or not. It's not a neutral choice.
Phat writes:
When the snake declared that A&E would be as gods, the snake meant (in my opinion) that they would live eternally one way or another...
That isn't how the story tells it. The clear implication of the story is that being godlike meant having the knowledge of good and evil. The fruit was all about the knowledge of good and evil. Not having eternal life was just a consequnce of their actions.
Phat writes:
What you don't have a right to do is define reality.
Indeed. But you're the one who wants to redefine reality - including the reality of the Bible.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Phat, posted 01-26-2020 3:44 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 306 of 531 (870992)
01-27-2020 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Phat
01-27-2020 3:02 AM


Re: Have you ever, ever actually read the Bible Phat?
Phat writes:
They knew of good and they knew of evil.
No, that is not what it says. You're making that up.
Phat writes:
Obviously the serpent wouldn't want them to know what evil was.
There's nothing obvious about that.
Phat writes:
Unless of course, you don't equate the serpent with evil
Why would you?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Phat, posted 01-27-2020 3:02 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Phat, posted 01-27-2020 11:44 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 310 of 531 (871001)
01-27-2020 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Phat
01-27-2020 11:44 AM


Re: Have you ever, ever actually read the Bible Phat?
Phat writes:
Surely you won't argue that the serpent is a wise teacher!
Why not? Adam and Eve followed his "teaching" and they became more like God. That sounds like a pretty good "teaching" to me.
Phat writes:
Its only job is to question authority and encourage A&E to do the same.
Isn't that what teaching is all about?
Phat writes:
The snake stimulated the humans to behave according to their natural inclinations, curiosity being chief.
You need to stop thinking of the snake as an entity. The snake character reflects the human's natural inclination toward curiosity. What the snake said was what Eve was thinking.
Phat writes:
One could argue why the snake was even in the garden. After all, did God not view everything he created as "good"?
Bingo.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Phat, posted 01-27-2020 11:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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