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Author | Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
Nope. The RCC teaches a works-oriented salvation doctrine that contradicts the Bible...quote: "If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
So does the Bible. I quoted it. And it continues: The RCC condemned the Protestant Reformation's Faith without Works formula.quote:What part of "not by faith only" do you not understand? Faith writes:
It has nothing to do with sides. What you said is clearly false.
Side with the RCC if you want but what I've said is true.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
And you ignore the places where the opposite is very clear. You ignore the places where it is very clear tht we are saved by faith alone in Christ alone without works... Why don't you actually cite the places you are referring to, so we can correct your misunderstanding?
Faith writes:
The proper way to understand James' statements is that works are a symptom of faith. If the works are there, all of the required "faith" is there, whether the person is a professing "Christian" or not. And if the works are not there, it's just another person mouthing, "Lord! Lord!" who Jesus never knew.
So the proper way to understand James' statements is that works validate faith but the faith comes first. Faith writes:
And God wouldn't have looked twice at either one of them if they hadn't done something to demonstrate their faith. The faith alone was worthless.
Abraham could not have sacrificed Isaac without strong faith in God. Rahab could not have been willing to *** for the Israelites without strong faith in their God. Faith writes:
Yes. Do you really want me to find all THOSE scriptures you so conveniently **** out?"If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
That's a distinction without a difference.
Yes, works are necessary to show that we have genuine faith, but they do not save us, it's the faith that saves us. Faith writes:
You have that backwards. The filthy-rags righteousness is the, "Lord! Lord!" fake faith. That is what is of no value to God. The only value is in what we do. Isaiah says, "All our righteousnesses are as filty rags." Our own righteousness, our own good works, are of no value whatever to God unless they are done in the faith that saves us."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
In Matthew 25, Jesus said that the ones who thought they were following Him were not and the ones who didn't think they were following Him were. Their faith in the message counted, not their faith in Him. Their motivation may have been to follow Him but they failed to do it effectively and they were punished for it.
I suggest that it is the motivation, or our heart, for the things that we do that matter. GDR writes:
Cost to ourselves is irrelevant. Only results matter. Good intentions that produce bad results may be forgivable but they are not constructive. If we are doing a good thing that benefits others but at no cost to the self that is fine."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes: They were just doing what they were doing without consideration of whether it was for Jesus or not.quote:They thought that they only had to minister to Him personally. GDR writes:
Se above. They thought they were ministering to Him.
Their motivation was simply to do the loving thing not about following Him. GDR writes:
That's just pretending to understand God's POV. It doesn't make sense to try to do that. The only realistic way to "help God" is by helping people. Sure, from a practical human POV that is correct, but from a POV of what we are called to by God in the Bible in general, or in Matthew 25 or my signature specifically, is Jesus' message of love."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
That isn't what it says. It says they thought they were following Jesus.
They were simply doing what they were motivated to do without thinking that it had anything to do with Jesus. GDR writes:
It amounts to the same thing. The only relationship you can have "with God" is with His creation.
It isn't really about simply God's POV, but understanding the Christian POV of what God's POV is. What we are talking about here is the individual's relationship with God. GDR writes:
That's the question that matters. Whether a loving act has a positive or negative outcome is an answer to a different question."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
The value of works is in the works themselves. Nothing is added by mouthing, "Lord! Lord!" while you do the works. ... in either case what Isaiah is saying refers to our own works done in our own fleshly strength rather than in the strength of God through -- genuine, bona fide, for real, authentic -- faith in Him. And since the works are done by people from all religious persuasions, their value has nothing to do with any particular faith."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
What I've said is directly from the Bible. I've quoted it. Faith without works is dead. "Faith alone" is a phony get-out-of-Hell-free card. The Bible disagrees with you but oh well."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's a classic carny spiel. Sproul isnt as carny as you think. He freely admits that the atheist's logic makes sense and that he wishes that God in fact exists. "Atheist" is a poison word, like "communist". You can say, "Communist logic makes sense..." and your audience will hang on your every word waiting for you to add, "... on paper - but it doesn't work in reality." And the audience wishes that God existed too. Even some atheists wish that God existed, even though there's no sign that He does. The audience is just hoping for the carny to verify and validate their wishful thinking. It's all about giving the customer what he wants. "Sure, you can be saved by faith alone. You don't have to do anything at all. Just say Lord! Lord! and the good works will happen magically all by themselves. No muss, no fuss.""If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You have that backwards. It's belief that should not get in the way of logic.
The only thing that believers have in common is a desire to know God. You may say you have the same desire, but ask yourself if your logic gets in the way. Phat writes:
Belief is irrational (or non-rational, if you prefer a less negative word). Period.
Perhaps you *know* that evidence is needed but finding none you conclude that belief is irrational and thus impossible. Phat writes:
Nonsense.
One can only believe once one experiences the evidence of His presence. Phat writes:
"Leap of faith" is a stupid concept. There's a bridge; are you going to take a leap of faith or are you going to rely on the strength of concrete and steel? Thus, the question: Will you take that leap of faith? Or do you feel a need to do so?"If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Well, you're not "yet" saved because whatever it is that you need to be saved from hasn't happened yet. That's why the whole idea of "knowing you are saved" is so silly. You can be confident that you will be saved but you can not know the future. I am not yet saved because I have not given it all up."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
That's what it's for. Only because your brain is keeping you from believing anything unevidenced."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It isn't black and white. Any one story can contain truth, exaggeration, embellishment AND bold-faced lies, all at the same time. Either the stories were made up or they actually happened."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
It's a universal fact. If your worldview doesn't accept that fact, then your worldview is wrong.
ringo writes:
This is your world view. Any one story can contain truth, exaggeration, embellishment AND bald-faced lies, all at the same time. Phat writes:
And you're wrong.
We don't view the bible as we do any normal book. Phat writes:
If you reject evidence, you might as well be a creationist.
I reject your evidence and your conclusions. Phat writes:
You're the one who doesn't get it. You quoted me. I said, "Any one story CAN contain truth, exaggeration, embellishment AND bald-faced lies, all at the same time." The very fact that you conclude that its all made up shows me that you are not getting it. Did you miss the word CAN? I did NOT say that it's all made up. But we have to acknowledge the FACT that SOME of it may be exaggeration, SOME of it may be embellishment and SOME of it may be bald-faced lies."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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