Testing The Christian Apologists

I don't really get what you are "testing" here. I listened to quite a bit of the talk, and except for his being an Arminian/antiCalvinist in my view it's a good basic talk on Christian issues.

As Turek points out later in his talk love is often misunderstood by Christians as if it implies agreement when we cannot agree with those whose belief systems violate God's commandments. So we love them by treating them kindly and helping them as they need help.

Having read just this far I was amazed that you would say something so true about God, but then of course you go on and spoil it with stuff about Noodlyness. Only of course mostly He reaches out through His missionaries. Interestingly, though, for a few decades now we've been hearing stories of Muslims being converted to Christ through dreams and visions.{to Percy: Excuse me Mr. Mad Censor, but it really is some kind of madness to censor an ordinary word like "dreams." I beg you, if you object to something I say please do not punish the English language for it or destroy my ability to write a coherent post, please suspend me instead. I have no idea what I could have said that provoked you to maiming poor innocent words, so it doesn't help if you intend by it to teach me something.Really this is too much, what you've done to that last paragraph. Obviously you don't care if I stay or go so I think I'll go.}Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

My "cult" is mainstream Protestantism or evangelicalism, pretty standard stuff, not a cult.I wasn't counting conversions I was commenting on your description of God choosing people from everywhere in the world, which I said is through His missionaries, which is biblically called The Great Commission. How many are converted to other religions is irrelevant, sad and irrelevant.{Sigh. I've got to stop posting since Percy is extirpating ordinary words. I bet "extirpating" isn't on his list yet, mayhbe now it is. Supposedly I use them to denigrate people but I don't even know what he is talking about even when he explains it}Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Sorry the Protestant Reformation showed that Roman Catholicism isn't even Christian, it's a heresy, basically paganism with a false method of salvation that will only send people to Hell.And Protestantism IS one stream, all teaching one fundamental method of salvation, all by Christ alone through faith, no works of our own.And what words do you think I'm not choosing carefully enough? "Irrelevant" is one he's censored, as well as "censor" itself, and "hypotheticals."Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

And *I* am saying that I chose the words "hypothetical" and "irrelevant" among others and you are the Drivel Master.And I'll repeat it because it matters: The RCC teaches a works-oriented salvation doctrine that contradicts the Bible and can only take people to Hell. We are saved by Christ's sacrifice ALONE through grace ALONE and no works at all "lest any man should boast." .

Remarkable how you can believe a pure invention of your own mind. What I believe is external to me, objectively given.

Yes thermodynamics works irrevocably on the physical body but we are more than physical and your soul is immortal whether you like it or not. I should think you would appreciate your own special human qualities which are certainly not physical but as God says He had to give up arguing with us for we are "but flesh" and flesh can't grasp the truth. He also says "Flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God," it's for the human spirit. Thermodynamics operates because of the Fall, which deprived us of our spiritual sense and left us "but flesh." This I know through revelation, it's not something a person of mere flesh, whose "breath is in his nostrils" rather than the breath of God, could grasp without revelation. You'd rather trust your fleshly senses unfortunately. I'm sorry.External and objedtive refers to the revelation which is outside me and had to be learned because my own nature could never intuit it.And I was like you until my mid to late forties, just as much in the dark about these things because of my flesh as you are. But to you I'm just a crazy person so barring a miracle there is no hope. Oh but I do believe in miracles so there is some hope.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Losing the war for influence is unfortunately the result of a lack of vigilance against the world, the flesh and the devil. It is our own fault for that reason, certainly, but the spirit is a subtle thing and unbelievers are "but flesh' who cannot discern the truth, and the devil spends all his time affirming your fleshly beliefs, and the world is made up of fleshly human beings. There's a lot working against us and we have not been vigilant. We are always falling into sin and losing our spiritual compass.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

The RCC condemned the Protestant Reformation's Faith without Works formula. Side with the RCC if you want but what I've said is true.

Catholics and Protestants agree on some things, just not the most important things.

Which is a meaningless statem4ent in itself since works FOLLOW faith and in THAT sense faith without works is dead, but WORKS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION.

You ignore the places where it is very clear tht we are saved by faith alone in Christ alone without works, and all scripture is to be interpreted in the light of other scripture. So the proper way to understand James' statements is that works validate faith but the faith comes first.Abraham could not have sacrificed Isaac without strong faith in God. Rahab could not have been willing to lie for the Israelites without strong faith in their God.Yes faith WITHOUT works is dead but that's a different subject than being saved by faith alone. THEN the works follow. You cannot have faith without works, which would only prove you weren't saved, but you are nevertheless saved by faith alone in Christ alone. Do you really want me to find all THOSE scriptures you so conveniently left out?

Yes, works are necessary to show that we have genuine faith, but they do not save us, it's the faith that saves us. the works must be done in that faith, works done without faith are useless. They are what Isaiah says, "All our righteousnesses are as filty rags." Our own righteousness, our own good works, are of no value whatever to God unless they are done in the faith that saves us.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Fake faith is the same thing as no faith and in either case what Isaiah is saying refers to our own works done in our own fleshly strength rather than in the strength of God through -- genuine, bona fide, for real, authentic -- faith in Him. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.