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Author | Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I'd react the same way I do when someone comes along and tries to explain to me what the Bible really means. I'd show him where he's wrong.
How would you like someone coming along and trying to explain to you what Treasure Island really means? Phat writes:
Why would I "interpret" Treasure Island? It says what it says. With no regard or respect for your interpretation? Have you ever read Treasure Island? Do you make up a "living Long John Silver" who wants to "commune" with you? Doesn't that sound crazy to you?
Phat writes:
I don't tell people to get lost. I follow them around from thread to thread trying to get them to engage.
You would tell them to get lost unless they made the story any better. Phat writes:
Not at all. I just acknowledge that the Jesus character understood a thing or two about humanist community building. If you're going to believe that the character is real, that should be your takeaway.
What you guys do is make the story into an allegory for humanist community building. Phat writes:
On the contrary, I'm the one who is constantly telling you to use it instead of just bleating, "Lord! Lord!"
...just throw the Christianity away. You never use it anyway. Phat writes:
Oooh! That's impressive. And I bet many bus drivers drive buses too.
Many of my fellow Christians already do. Phat writes:
Getting offended doesn't accomplish anything. Show how they're wrong.
And when critics call them carny barkers and conmen, I get offended. Phat writes:
It's not a contest.
I bet we feed more people than your local salvation army or red cross does. Phat writes:
It seems to me it's the Christians who are getting mad. They don't like having their fairy tale challenged. What gets the humanists mad is the "Christian" part."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
I keep asking you: If you're getting some kind of "special communication" from Jesus, why doesn't it manifest as the fruits of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance)?
because many of us believe that Jesus speaks through the scriptures, teaching you as you study. Phat writes:
Creationists - particularly the young, uneducated ones - call that "thinking outside the box". My standard response is: You shouldn't try to think outside the box until you understand the box. You should be trying to understand the text before you swallow any "fresh" outside-the-box "interpretations" (fairy tales) from apologists.
There has been many a Bible study where we read passages we have read before and get a fresh interpretation. Phat writes:
So did the messenger.
I knew that you valued socialism more than the messenger. Phat writes:
On the contrary, socialism is our only hope.
Your socialism will break down along with the rest of the world systems when the fossil fuels run out and the oceans rise. Phat writes:
Watch Christianity take off and grow exponentially.![]() Phat writes:
We already have you and Faith. Then you really will have a lot of nuts and false prophets to deal with, as will we."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It's "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need". Contribute what you can, get what you need. It's exactly what Jesus taught.
From what I understand, its basically collective ownership. Nothing is privately owned. Phat writes:
Ironic choice of words. Some areas of life remain sacred."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
That's just hypocrisy.
In our own country we have the province that espouses secular humanism, (the BQ leader promoted the ides that the province is secular and gained the most seats), is the province that wants to limit immigration and bans religious symbols. GDR writes:
That's mostly because they have the organization. In contrast it is churches across the country that have been most active in sponsoring refugee families both financially and with the help they need to settle here."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Nobody has said anything about surrendering everything to government. Shall they all simply be struck dead for not surrendering everything to..wait for it..not Jesus or His Apostles but to a secular government ran by fallible humans?"If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That happens all the time. The Roman Empire collapsed and Jupiter/Zeus is now forgotten.
Times will get tougher. Phat writes:
We're already organized into collectives. They're called "nations".
People will organize into collectives to survive. Phat writes:
We already have that too. We can tell the "fake Christians" by their all-caps posts. Within the spiritual groups will be both fake and real Christians. You will know them by their fruits and by their politics."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I don't necessarily advocate "implementing socialism". I advocate being a decent human being, which is also what Jesus advocated. Do what needs doing even if it means giving up that second ivory back-scratcher. My point is that socialism will never be implemented as long as the wealthy keep their power. But when I point this out to ringo, he seems to suggest that if the "cushy" middle class sacrificed more, the poor would be better off and it would be no big deal for the middle to get knocked down a rung or two. But what you're missing is that pulling up the poor benefits everybody. The poor get richer and pay more taxes, which reduces your tax burden."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You see it in the microcosm of right-wing politics.
I likely misunderstand socialism because I see it in the microcosm of union politics. Phat writes:
What you're missing is that more workers produce more, so there's more to go around. If too many new people get hired, the union benefits because of more union dues, the company benefits because of cheaper labor, but the senior union members then have to share their hours and end up taking home less. I've only ever had one job where seniority counted for anything and that was only an extra week of vacation. Employers should recognize that older workers bring experience, reliabilty, etc. to make up for slowing down, etc. but I don't see any reason to give preference to seniority for its own sake."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And that's dishonest. It's putting the conclusion before the argument. I have seen no evidence that apologists lie. I have seen that they do take parts of scripture to support other parts of scripture."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Honesty does not depend on whether you're a believer or not. If you believe something contrary to the evidence, you're being dishonest with yourself.
Its not dishonest if you were a believer. Phat writes:
ANY time the conclusion comes before the argument, it is ALWAYS dishonest. You have no business drawing a conclusion before looking at the argument(s).
The conclusion does haopen before the argument (of scripture) Phat writes:
You don't get "saved" at all until the judgement. And what you are saved from is God.
We dont "get saved" through brainwashing. Phat writes:
How can you claim the scripture is "alive" to you when you reject what it says? Since when does something have to be mangled to be alive? The scripture then becomes alive. Living and active...sharper than a sword etc."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No. You reject what it says in favour of assertions made by apologists. They do not "share what it says". They try to explain away what it says.
I have only rejected assertions made by you and jar which dont line up with how the other 500+ Christians I know to interpret it or share what it says. Phat writes:
Exactly. You need to know the different authors of the different books that make up the Bible. You can not assume that they are all marching in lockstep and use that assumption to force a universal "meaning" on all of them.
It helps to know the author of a book before trying to understand what it says. Phat writes:
That's obviously false. Paulk is another one who disagrees with you.
Of all of the people whom I have discussed the book with, none of them except you and jar have suggested any other meaning to be gleaned. Phat writes:
You shouldn't believe anybody, least of all the ones who tell you what you want you hear. You should use your head.
Now, who am I to believe? Phat writes:
You shouldn't. It's often wrong.
First, I trust my intuition. Phat writes:
But again you only ask the ones who tell you what you want to hear. That's fundamentally dishonest.
Next, I ask others. Phat writes:
How can it be "stubborn" to argue that they say what they say? It's a tautology, for Christ's sake. They DO say what they say.
You, in particular, stubbornly stand on the argument that the books say what they say period. Phat writes:
That's a lie.
Nobody else has told me this. Phat writes:
But you never produce an argument against it. If you want to be taken seriously, you'll have to stop all this meta nonsense and make an actual argument.
And I have reason to question it and doubt it. Phat writes:
Nonsense. God is the only one who is threatening to harm us if we get out of line. He's the only enemy.
We are saved from God's judgment but not from God Himself. Phat writes:
YOU try to explain it. If you understand it, you should be able to explain it. And if you don't understand it, that's likely because it doesn't make sense.
CS Lewis attempts to explain it: Phat writes:
Why don't you stick to one issue at a time? Why do the apologists lie about Genesis 2-3? What problems do you have with the doctrine of substitutionary atonement?"If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It's a lie to say the snake lied. It's a lie to say God told the truth. It's a lie to say there was a Fall.
Nobody lies about Genesis. Phat writes:
When the book says, "White", it's a lie to claim the message is,"Black." Some simply see a different message. You're just denying. You're not presenting any argument. Back up what you claim."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
You claim that you have seen no evidence of apologist lies. I've shown you evidence.
All that I claim is that I worship the character of God as I understand Him. Phat writes:
I'm not "explaining" anything. I'm quoting. The book does say what it says. What part of that is so difficult to understand?
I do not worship the book nor do I accept your explanation of what the book says. Phat writes:
Judgement doesn't enter into it. That seems to be your basic problem: you trust the apologists' judgement. You shouldn't.
I dont trust your judgment.... Phat writes:
Again, there doesn't need to be any truth in me. What the book says is the beginning of truth. Spackling a "meaning" on top of what it says is dishonest, especially when the supposed "meaning" directly contradicts what the book says.
... you have no truth in you as to what the book means. Phat writes:
You don't need to. If you knew me since the day you were born it wouldn't make my posts any more true or more false.
I don't know you from Adam. Phat writes:
Then why did you start a thread about "Testing the Christian Apologists"? Did you ever intend to actually test the apologists? Did you ever intend to actually discuss anything? Or did you intend from the start to just repeat, "Nuh uh," over and over again? But I refuse to be drawn into an argument forcing me to deny my belief. Nobody is trying to force you to deny your beliefs but you're not going to get away with preaching. If what you say is wrong, it will be pointed out.
Phat writes:
You don't "maintain". You just keep repeating the same empty claim. Maintenance requires some actual work. I maintain that you and jar are deceived in that particular snake/God argument. That's all."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's where you go wrong. You should't be pondering how many cartwheels and backflips it takes to reconcile the Bible with your beliefs.
Lets take the "God character lies...snake tells truth" argument. I tried to ponder the meaning of that statement in order to reconcile with my belief. Phat writes:
It doesn't really matter why God lied. What you need to reconcile with your beliefs is the fact that He did lie.
If the God character did lie, He lied to protect His innocent creation... Phat writes:
Well no, we can't debate that at all because you keep refusing to bring anything resembling an argument. We can debate all day whether the apologists were dishonest by interpreting this idea of death as a spiritual death---"If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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ringo Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Yes. What do you expect? A term paper?"If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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