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Author | Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
vimesey Member Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
I'm not good enough to snip this (assuming I can at all), but this clip sums it up for me.
Go to 18 minutes 15 secs and watch for 2 minutes: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G7-z_5LYODw&t=1219s Edited by vimesey, : No reason given.Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ? |
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
And you ignore the places where the opposite is very clear. You ignore the places where it is very clear tht we are saved by faith alone in Christ alone without works... Why don't you actually cite the places you are referring to, so we can correct your misunderstanding?
Faith writes:
The proper way to understand James' statements is that works are a symptom of faith. If the works are there, all of the required "faith" is there, whether the person is a professing "Christian" or not. And if the works are not there, it's just another person mouthing, "Lord! Lord!" who Jesus never knew.
So the proper way to understand James' statements is that works validate faith but the faith comes first. Faith writes:
And God wouldn't have looked twice at either one of them if they hadn't done something to demonstrate their faith. The faith alone was worthless.
Abraham could not have sacrificed Isaac without strong faith in God. Rahab could not have been willing to *** for the Israelites without strong faith in their God. Faith writes:
Yes. Do you really want me to find all THOSE scriptures you so conveniently **** out?"If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Yes, works are necessary to show that we have genuine faith, but they do not save us, it's the faith that saves us. the works must be done in that faith, works done without faith are useless. They are what Isaiah says, "All our righteousnesses are as filty rags." Our own righteousness, our own good works, are of no value whatever to God unless they are done in the faith that saves us. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
That's a distinction without a difference.
Yes, works are necessary to show that we have genuine faith, but they do not save us, it's the faith that saves us. Faith writes:
You have that backwards. The filthy-rags righteousness is the, "Lord! Lord!" fake faith. That is what is of no value to God. The only value is in what we do. Isaiah says, "All our righteousnesses are as filty rags." Our own righteousness, our own good works, are of no value whatever to God unless they are done in the faith that saves us."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9
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Faith writes: Yes, works are necessary to show that we have genuine faith, but they do not save us, it's the faith that saves us.ringo writes: I disagree with both of you. (There's a surprise ) You have that backwards. The filthy-rags righteousness is the, "Lord! Lord!" fake faith. That is what is of no value to God. The only value is in what we do. What I believe that Faith means by faith is faith in a specific Christian doctrine. I contend that we are called to have faith in Jesus' command to love and then to live that faith out. Ringo's idea that it is only what we do that matters I think misses the point as well. I suggest that it is the motivation, or our heart, for the things that we do that matter. If we are doing a good thing that benefits others but at no cost to the self that is fine. However, it is having sufficient faith, regardless of our religious beliefs, to believe that doing something beneficial to others at some personal cost is what we are called as humans to do, and then living by that faith, that is of value to God. Edited by GDR, : It is a little embarrassing to leave a typo in the heading He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
In Matthew 25, Jesus said that the ones who thought they were following Him were not and the ones who didn't think they were following Him were. Their faith in the message counted, not their faith in Him. Their motivation may have been to follow Him but they failed to do it effectively and they were punished for it.
I suggest that it is the motivation, or our heart, for the things that we do that matter. GDR writes:
Cost to ourselves is irrelevant. Only results matter. Good intentions that produce bad results may be forgivable but they are not constructive. If we are doing a good thing that benefits others but at no cost to the self that is fine."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
ringo writes: Not really. They were just doing what they were doing without consideration of whether it was for Jesus or not. In Matthew 25, Jesus said that the ones who thought they were following Him were not and the ones who didn't think they were following Him were.ringo writes: Their motivation was simply to do the loving thing not about following Him.
Their faith in the message counted, not their faith in Him. Their motivation may have been to follow Him but they failed to do it effectively and they were punished for it.ringo writes: Sure, from a practical human POV that is correct, but from a POV of what we are called to by God in the Bible in general, or in Matthew 25 or my signature specifically, is Jesus' message of love. How the application of that love plays out is not always going to be perfect in an imperfect world. Cost to ourselves is irrelevant. Only results matter. Good intentions that produce bad results may be forgivable but they are not constructive.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes: They were just doing what they were doing without consideration of whether it was for Jesus or not.quote:They thought that they only had to minister to Him personally. GDR writes:
Se above. They thought they were ministering to Him.
Their motivation was simply to do the loving thing not about following Him. GDR writes:
That's just pretending to understand God's POV. It doesn't make sense to try to do that. The only realistic way to "help God" is by helping people. Sure, from a practical human POV that is correct, but from a POV of what we are called to by God in the Bible in general, or in Matthew 25 or my signature specifically, is Jesus' message of love."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
ringo writes: They were simply doing what they were motivated to do without thinking that it had anything to do with Jesus.
They thought that they only had to minister to Him personally.ringo writes: It isn't really about simply God's POV, but understanding the Christian POV of what God's POV is. What we are talking about here is the individual's relationship with God. Whether a loving act has a positive or negative outcome is an answer to a different question. That's just pretending to understand God's POV. It doesn't make sense to try to do that. The only realistic way to "help God" is by helping people.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
That isn't what it says. It says they thought they were following Jesus.
They were simply doing what they were motivated to do without thinking that it had anything to do with Jesus. GDR writes:
It amounts to the same thing. The only relationship you can have "with God" is with His creation.
It isn't really about simply God's POV, but understanding the Christian POV of what God's POV is. What we are talking about here is the individual's relationship with God. GDR writes:
That's the question that matters. Whether a loving act has a positive or negative outcome is an answer to a different question."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
saiah says, "All our righteousnesses are as filty rags." Our own righteousness, our own good works, are of no value whatever to God unless they are done in the faith that saves us. You have that backwards. The filthy-rags righteousness is the, "Lord! Lord!" fake faith. That is what is of no value to God. The only value is in what we do. Fake faith is the same thing as no faith and in either case what Isaiah is saying refers to our own works done in our own fleshly strength rather than in the strength of God through -- genuine, bona fide, for real, authentic -- faith in Him. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member
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Ringo's idea that it is only what we do that matters I think misses the point as well. I suggest that it is the motivation, or our heart, for the things that we do that matter. If we are doing a good thing that benefits others but at no cost to the self that is fine. However, it is having sufficient faith, regardless of our religious beliefs, to believe that doing something beneficial to others at some personal cost is what we are called as humans to do, and then living by that faith, that is of value to God. Seems rather obvious (to me at least) what the scriptures mean when they juxtapose faith and works. They are meant to coexist just as time and space, day and night are meaningless without the other. The scriptures are clear that faith, alone, is what brings salvation. Why? Because somebody running around doing good works but is self-serving is only doing those good deeds with the expectation of something in return -- we'll call it everlasting life for the purpose of this discussion. On the other hand, faith without works is dead. Sitting there and saying "I believe in Jesus" without living it out or lifting a finger for your fellow man has no teeth... This too demonstrates selfishness instead of selflessness. "Working out one's salvation" is acknowledgement that no good deed or any amount of good deeds can earn eternal life. But somebody who does nothing to act out in that faith through works is dead inside. "Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
The value of works is in the works themselves. Nothing is added by mouthing, "Lord! Lord!" while you do the works. ... in either case what Isaiah is saying refers to our own works done in our own fleshly strength rather than in the strength of God through -- genuine, bona fide, for real, authentic -- faith in Him. And since the works are done by people from all religious persuasions, their value has nothing to do with any particular faith."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The Bible disagrees with you but oh well.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
What I've said is directly from the Bible. I've quoted it. Faith without works is dead. "Faith alone" is a phony get-out-of-Hell-free card. The Bible disagrees with you but oh well."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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