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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Religion or Science - How do they compare? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: jar would be better off calling the apologist's liars rather than addressing any of us as such. Why? Specifics Phat. What have I called a lie (and I do limit the term "lie" to specific instances) as opposed to falsehoods or misrepresentations that was not an out and out lie? Read what I write Phat. I try not to use terms like lie loosely. And should the apologists come here and post I will respond to them just as I would to any poster.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Let's take Faith and me. Granted, I know you through what you write better than she does because I take a lot of time to read what you write. Earlier in this thread, you told her to stop lying.
Faith writes:
First Faith, stop lying. STOP LYING! First I think you are exaggerating due to your anti-Christian agenda, and I know you have no perspective whatever in any case, but Native American religions like all heathen religions are of the devil. I am a Christian, and I have no anti-Christian bias. You lying about me changes nothing.Earlier, you said to her You really need to stop reading lying sources. The only real way that she would be lying is if she, in fact, lies to herself knowingly. Also, assuming first that you are correct about the sources...which would be hard to prove...she would also have to willingly quote sources that she subconsciously recognized as lying. The same applies to me. I trust some of what people here present as facts. Theodoric seems to like Richard Carrier. I honestly believe in a spiritual war, and I honestly think Richard Carrier is one of satans agents...I disagree with a lot of what he claims about the Bible. To be honest, I have not read his works nearly as thoroughly as I do your posts, and I think it is either because I don't want to entertain the distant possibility that the content may be factual or that I fear that I am diluting my faith by absorbing such propaganda by spiritual forces of the enemy. I think that Faith feels even stronger than I do concerning this stuff-- the difference being that she does not even read what her opponents (as she perceives them) post---whereas I do. I think if distant memory serves me correctly, that I was told to stop lying...if I find it in the archives I will reread it in context, for I (think) that I know my intentions in anything that I write. Perhaps at times, I write only to win arguments, truth be damned. The issue is whether I willfully lie in order to win an argument. I do not believe that I do. I cannot speak for Faith. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Do you not think that she honestly believes what she writes about? What she believes is irrelevant to whether or not she is lying. If it is false, and she has been shown it is false, and she continues to repeat it, she is lying. The easiest person to lie to is oneself. That is important. The easiest person to lie to is oneself. Lots of things can be simply a matter of opinion, but most things can be supported by evidence. My membership in a recognized Chapter of Club Christian can be supported by fact. The Episcopal Church has a registry of every member (most of the major denominations as well) and you are entered into the communion. If you change churches, that membership gets transferred from the old to the new Parish. The system exists and has existed now for many centuries. If Faith would say, "I don't believe you are a Christian" then I'd just laugh at her. If Faith says "You are not a Christian" then she is lying.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Let's take Faith and me. Granted, I know you through what you write better than she does because I take a lot of time to read what you write. Earlier in this thread, you told her to stop lying. Was liar the worst epithet thrown around here? Weren't folks being called Nazis? What was in that message you removed in that response to me? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That, of course, is nonsense. If it was true, the USS Enterprise would be parked in orbit above your house and Frodo would be knocking on your door asking for directions to Mordor.
I've heard it said that if you can visualize/imagine it, you can create it. Phat writes:
What I said was, "If I have a need for a time machine, does that mean I have access to one or that one even exists?" My question was not about the theoretical possibility of time travel. It was about whether or not I can get a time machine at Wal-mart. Time Travel Isn't PossibleOr Is It? The same applies to your "need" to believe. The need may be real but that doesn't mean the belief is.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Napoleon tried to crown himself. I could declare that I am a Christian, and prove that the evidence existed that supported my membership. The counter-argument centers around the definitions of reality, evidence, belief, and supportable vs unsupportable assertions.
Critics (whom would be hypothetical members of Biblical Christianity) live in an alternate universe from the one that you and many of the critically thinking science minded do. And before I go on, I realize that I cant win this argument. All I am saying is that if a man says that he sees a giant rabbit that lives with him, he can be labeled delusional yet cannot be charged with lying simply because the evidence does not support giant rabbits. The evidence is never conclusive when a spiritual war is being fought. Critics would label you as unchristian because you attack the sacred cow of Christian History, which threatens them. You attack the divinity of Jesus Christ which is sacrilegious to them. You strip away the certainty of faith and even suggest to people that they throw the whole idea of God that they have been taught away. Then, to add insult to injury, you tell them that they are lying, which is not taken lightly when they see themselves as merely a YEC presenting an alternate explanation for how reality played out. Thats all I'm saying. add by edit: Perhaps I lied in this very argument. I can hear you now, telling me to stop misrepresenting what you say! Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
If it was true, the USS Enterprise would be parked in orbit above your house and Frodo would be knocking on your door asking for directions to Mordor. If Tolkien were alive today and knew of me and my house, I could well be written into the story that he imagined. Frodo and i would get along just nifty, but Harvey the white rabbit may get jealous! as for the Enterprise, I see your logic. Only a Creator of all seen and unseen could author a story where natural laws were suspended and things were created ex nihilio. I doubt He would create another enterprise, however....one is too many.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: All I am saying is that if a man says that he sees a giant rabbit that lives with him, he can be labeled delusional yet cannot be charged with lying simply because the evidence does not support giant rabbits. Again, I do not (or at least try very hard to not) ever do that. When I use the term lying I mean instances where there is positive evidence that the person is lying and the person has been told about that evidence.
Phat writes: The evidence is never conclusive when a spiritual war is being fought. There is no evidence of any such thing as a Spiritual War and I do not think I have ever said someone was lying for making such a silly claim. But it is a silly claim until and unless it can be supported by reason, logic or reality.
Phat writes: You attack the divinity of Jesus Christ which is sacrilegious to them. Nor have I ever attacked the divinity of Jesus. Phat, when you say that are you not exhibiting the very example of lying both to yourself and to all the readers of this board?
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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yeah, note my add by edit above.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Capt Stormfield Member Posts: 429 From: Vancouver Island Joined:
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Then, to add insult to injury, you tell them that they are lying, which is not taken lightly when they see themselves as merely a YEC presenting an alternate explanation for how reality played out. Thats all I'm saying. It's the "...merely a YEC" part that throws a bit of a monkey wrench into the whole attempt to spare individual feelings. Declaring oneself a YEC carries with it specific, testable claims about the physical world. Adherents also make implicit and explicit claims regarding the intellectual honesty of the scientific community. The time has long passed when it can be pretended that those claims can be reconciled with reality. When you make an explicit claim that contradicts the findings of a particular scientific field, and when those claims have been debunked repeatably, ignorance is no longer an excuse. Unless YECs wish to assume the cloak of stupidity or intellectual dysfunction, they are lying. They deserve better than the bigotry of low expectations. Generations of individuals have been facilitated in the their dysfunction by misdirected politeness.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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The vast majority of people on this forum including most of us theists agree that we have evolved. However, this forum is called evolution vs creationism. If we want to say that creationists aren’t allowed to post their views because they’ve been proven wrong then just maybe the name of the forum should be changed. Calling someone a liar because they express their firmly held views, whether they are right or wrong, is just plain rude and IMHO doesn’t have a place on this forum.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Capt Stormfield Member Posts: 429 From: Vancouver Island Joined:
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Yet I imagine that telling scientists that their perceptions have been misdirected by an evil, invisible, magic space lizard is just what? Witnessing?
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
If they express them as views or beliefs rather than facts then it's unlikely anyone would say they are lying.
If Faith said "I don't believe Roman Catholics are Christians."; then she is just showing her utter ignorance. If faith says "Roman Catholics are not Christians."; then she is lying.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Capt Stormfield writes:
Yet I imagine that telling scientists that their perceptions have been misdirected by an evil, invisible, magic space lizard is just what? Witnessing? Like I said, just plain rude. You make my point perfectly.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
jar writes: If they express them as views or beliefs rather than facts then it's unlikely anyone would say they are lying.If Faith said "I don't believe Roman Catholics are Christians."; then she is just showing her utter ignorance. If faith says "Roman Catholics are not Christians."; then she is lying. C'mon jar, everyone knows that she is simply stating her beliefs. Edited by GDR, : missed a word as you can see in jar's quoteHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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