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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
ringo
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 226 of 716 (788222)
07-27-2016 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by GDR
07-27-2016 3:49 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
If Jesus is resurrected by God then we can have confidence in Jesus' self understanding.
Jesus' self-understanding is irrelevant. A prophecy that nobody can understand before the fact is worthless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by GDR, posted 07-27-2016 3:49 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-27-2016 3:58 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 245 by GDR, posted 07-28-2016 12:29 PM ringo has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10198
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 227 of 716 (788223)
07-27-2016 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by GDR
07-27-2016 3:49 PM


Re: Temple
Once again though it all comes back to the resurrection. If Jesus is resurrected by God then we can have confidence in Jesus' self understanding. If the resurrection is not true then the whole point is moot anyway.
As I said in my other reply if Jesus wasn't resurrected then He would simply have been another failed messiah and His followers would simply have disappeared back to their fishing etc.
That doesn't make much sense. The Messiah prophecies call for the Messiah to defeat the enemies of Israel. Whether some dude resurrects from the dead or not, the Messiah still has to conquer those enemies.
Using the Donald Trump analogy from another post, if you prophesize that Donald Trump will win the general election you can't come back and claim the prophecy is fulfilled because Donald Trump wore a red tie during his concession speech.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by GDR, posted 07-27-2016 3:49 PM GDR has not replied

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 Message 231 by Phat, posted 07-27-2016 4:52 PM Taq has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 228 of 716 (788224)
07-27-2016 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by ringo
07-27-2016 3:52 PM


A prophecy that nobody can understand before the fact is worthless
Here was a Canaanite philosopher from c.234-305 A.D.
Porphyry - Wikipedia(philosopher)
He said the same thing:
quote:
Daniel did not predict so much future events as he narrated past ones. Finally what he had told up to Antiochus contained true history; if anything was guessed beyond that point it was false, for he had not known the future. (quoted by Jerome)
He argued that Daniel was written in the mid 2nd century BCE not the 6th.
I wonder if this individual being from Tyre influenced his interest in the subject (the failed prophecy of Tyre comes to mind).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by ringo, posted 07-27-2016 3:52 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 716 (788225)
07-27-2016 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by LamarkNewAge
07-27-2016 10:49 AM


Re: "Pork, in contrast is unimportant."
Turning fish into a much larger amount of fish "left over" after the meal was done could very well be seen an making up entirely new and totally different fish. This is lab-grown and "3-D printed" fish to an entirely new level.
I gave you other examples to deal with that suggest something other than vegetarianism. I note that you did not deal with those in order to maintain this fake fish rule. Did Jesus also make fake bread when he fed the multitude? What would this signify?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-27-2016 10:49 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-27-2016 6:18 PM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 230 of 716 (788226)
07-27-2016 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by foreveryoung
07-27-2016 3:17 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
foreveryoung writes:
They are wrong. Jesus did take away the sins of the world.
...
Not all men are saved however. They have to reconcile with God. All they have to do is accept with Jesus did on their behalf. If they refuse, God's taking away all sins of the world does no good.
Classic example of apologetics at its finest, word salad and carny con games.
Jesus took away the sins of the world but not the world, just those who kiss Hank's ass.
It the little games like what is in your post that show so much of Christianity is just another con, another way to fleece the willfully ignorant gullible rubes.
I happen to believe that is why there will be so many more atheists and Satanists and Buddhists and Jews and Muslims and Hindus and agnostics and Taoists and followers of Coyote and Confucius and Mencius in heaven than Christians.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by foreveryoung, posted 07-27-2016 3:17 PM foreveryoung has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Phat, posted 07-27-2016 4:56 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 231 of 716 (788227)
07-27-2016 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Taq
07-27-2016 3:56 PM


Re: Temple
Taq writes:
The Messiah prophecies call for the Messiah to defeat the enemies of Israel. Whether some dude resurrects from the dead or not, the Messiah still has to conquer those enemies.
One could argue that the very thing that makes an enemy an enemy is the bad spirit within them. Some argue that we humans have the means and responsibility to do what is right. Others argue that the very thing that causes wars is intrinsic evil...greed...idolatry....lust....pride....etc.
By resurrecting from the dead, the Messiah conquered the enemy. It is now up to us to give Him the territory He conquered.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Taq, posted 07-27-2016 3:56 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Taq, posted 07-28-2016 12:12 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 232 of 716 (788228)
07-27-2016 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by jar
07-27-2016 4:19 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
jar writes:
Jesus took away the sins of the world but not the world, just those who kiss Hank's ass.
It must feel nice to be fully responsible. It means you get to have pride and credit yourself for proper behavior.
Classic example of apologetics at its finest, word salad and carny con games.
And how is your belief any different? Apart from the fact that you are skilled at avoiding word salad. In addition, you have never trusted Christianity that is not your own brand. To me, this shows that you dont trust God. Reason? You dont believe that Christ can live in others and you prefer to feed the poor, etc yourself anyway.
I happen to believe that is why there will be so many more atheists and Satanists and Buddhists and Jews and Muslims and Hindus and agnostics and Taoists and followers of Coyote and Confucius and Mencius in heaven than Christians.
If so, it appears God cares nothing about our behavior.
Am I misrepresenting you again?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by jar, posted 07-27-2016 4:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by jar, posted 07-27-2016 5:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 233 of 716 (788230)
07-27-2016 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Phat
07-27-2016 4:56 PM


marketing Christianity or living it.
Phat writes:
It must feel nice to be fully responsible. It means you get to have pride and credit yourself for proper behavior.
Too funny. No Phat, it means you and only you are responsible for your failures. There is no credit involved.
Phat writes:
And how is your belief any different? Apart from the fact that you are skilled at avoiding word salad. In addition, you have never trusted Christianity that is not your own brand. To me, this shows that you dont trust God. Reason? You dont believe that Christ can live in others and you prefer to feed the poor, etc yourself anyway.
What about that says I don't trust God? Or did you mean that I don't expect God to have to do what I should and can do?
Who else can feed the poor? It is only us Phat, we are our brothers keepers? We are charged to do.
Folk can pray that the hungry get fed, the sick get healed, the naked get clothed, the suffering get comforted, ignorant get educated, the weak get protected, the homeless get sheltered or they can feed the hungry, comfort the sorrowful, heal the sick, protect the weak, shelter the homeless, educate the ignorant, clothe the naked.
One may make the person praying feel better, the other helps the recipient.
Phat writes:
If so, it appears God cares nothing about our behavior.
Am I misrepresenting you again?
I cannot imagine how you can possibly get that out of what you quoted. Nowhere in that quote will you find anything about behavior; rather the quote is about professions and beliefs. I believe God will care far more about our behavior than why we behave as we do, what we claim to believe, what we profess.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Phat, posted 07-27-2016 4:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 234 of 716 (788231)
07-27-2016 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by NoNukes
07-27-2016 4:11 PM


Re: "Pork, in contrast is unimportant."
quote:
[NoNukes]
I gave you other examples to deal with that suggest something other than vegetarianism. I note that you did not deal with those in order to maintain this fake fish rule. Did Jesus also make fake bread when he fed the multitude? What would this signify?
Here is the complete text from your post # 218.
quote:
Except that the text talks about collecting the fish from folks before feeding the multitude. Apparently somebody was eating fish. Jesus performed a miracle in which cast nets came up brimming full of fish. (Luke 5:7, John 21:6) Some of the disciples were fishermen by trade. I don't think the fake fish guess holds up all that well.
The texts indicate that there was more fish left over after the meal was over than there was fish before the magical miracle created lots of (additional) fish. They ate the fish, but was it from a killed animal or "3-d printed" "lab-grown type meat" (with no killing)? The nets could have been a miracle (a fundamentalist should think so) involving artificial fish (with no brains or thoughts and perhaps some strange physical matter).
As for the life of the disciples before they met Jesus, surely they performed animal sacrifices and probably ate meat before they met Jesus. Matthew was a vegetarian according to Clement of Alexandria (born c. 150 A.D. and wrote close to 200 A.D.)
quote:
"It is far better to be happy than to have your bodies act as graveyards for animals. Accordingly, the apostle Matthew partook of seeds, nuts and vegetables, without flesh".
http://www.ivu.org/history/christian/clement.html
Here is Clement of Alexandria on wikipedia.
Clement of Alexandria - Wikipedia

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by NoNukes, posted 07-27-2016 4:11 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by NoNukes, posted 07-28-2016 5:54 AM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 240 by ringo, posted 07-28-2016 11:44 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 235 of 716 (788232)
07-27-2016 6:51 PM


Example of b.s.
Here is a super popular evangelical dictionary text.
quote:
The clean/unclean system divided animals, people, and land into three categories to teach separation from the Gentiles
....
Thus the food laws symbolically reinforced teaching elsewhere that Israel was a "holy nation" ( Exod 19:6 ) set apart from all others, and promoted practical holiness by discouraging table fellowship with the Canaanites whose diet would ordinarily include the pig and other "unclean" foods ( Lev 20:25-26 ),
Clean, Unclean - Meaning & Definition - Baker's Bible Dictionary
It is b.s.
The Canaanites did not.
Put "phoenicians ate pork" into google and see the evidence. They did not in B.C. times and did not in A.D. times.
Porphyry in 245 A.D. talked about that.
Archaeology shows that they did not.
The Hyksos didn't eat pork and it is theorized that the Egyptians did not because of them.
more google search terms:
hyksos ate pork
phoenicians pork herodotus
All sorts of information. This lie that Canaanites ate pork has been around for ages, but it isn't true.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by NoNukes, posted 07-27-2016 8:49 PM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 07-28-2016 11:15 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 236 of 716 (788235)
07-27-2016 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by LamarkNewAge
07-27-2016 6:51 PM


Re: Example of b.s.
The clean/unclean system divided animals, people, and land into three categories to teach separation from the Gentiles
This relates to vegetarianism in what way?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-27-2016 6:51 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 12:07 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 237 of 716 (788242)
07-28-2016 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by LamarkNewAge
07-27-2016 6:18 PM


Re: "Pork, in contrast is unimportant."
As for the life of the disciples before they met Jesus, surely they performed animal sacrifices and probably ate meat before they met Jesus. Matthew was a vegetarian according to Clement of Alexandria (born c. 150 A.D. and wrote close to 200 A.D.)
Sigh. And what do you make of Jesus performing a miracle to help them catch living fish? Or can we finally admit that this last feat, performed after those folks met Jesus stomps a mud hole in your vegetarian theory.
How about a more direct indication of Jesus eating fish.
Luke 24:42-43
quote:
And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
And he took it, and did eat before them.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-27-2016 6:18 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 12:24 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 238 of 716 (788251)
07-28-2016 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by LamarkNewAge
07-27-2016 6:51 PM


Is Google Really Our Friend?
Put "phoenicians ate pork" into google and see the evidence. They did not in B.C. times and did not in A.D. times.
Porphyry in 245 A.D. talked about that.
Archaeology shows that they did not.
The Hyksos didn't eat pork and it is theorized that the Egyptians did not because of them.
more google search terms:
hyksos ate pork
phoenicians pork herodotus
All sorts of information. This lie that Canaanites ate pork has been around for ages, but it isn't true.
But you cant let google do your homework. You need to understand and provide an argument totally in your own words.
What you are doing is trying to support a conclusion with google.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-27-2016 6:51 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 11:42 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 239 of 716 (788253)
07-28-2016 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Phat
07-28-2016 11:15 AM


The Middle East didn't eat pork especially the Canaanites.
Here one of trillions of pieces of evidence.
Here is an expert on archaeological sites. This is a man respected on all sides of the early Israel debate. Second to none in his field.
quote:
Na'aman has a different explanation for the lack of pig bones: "The Canaanites also did not eat pork. Only the Philistines ate a great deal of pork at this time." As for figurines, Na'aman says places elsewhere in Judea "were full of figurines."
http://www.haaretz.com/...debate-on-david-s-kingdom-1.429087
quote:
Religious restrictions on the consumption of pork are a tradition in the Ancient Near East. Swine were prohibited in ancient Syria[1] and Phoenicia,[2]
Religious restrictions on the consumption of pork - Wikipedia
If you follow my google links, then you will find ancient quotes about the Phoenicians and Syrians.
Plus books that reference the issue
Eat Not this Flesh: Food Avoidances from Prehistory to the Present - Frederick J. Simoons - Google Books
There is just endlessly repeated lies that never ever end.
JPS Torah Commentary: Numbers, ed. Nahum Sarna (Philadelphia, 1990), talks about the pork laws and how they are meant to be followed everywhere, and not just in a cultic context.
I will try to get the quote (I have the book on software, but can't use it presently).
I found mp3 tracks of Vernon McGhee.
See Leviticus 11 track.
It is "secular" not cultic
There are moral or ethical issues.
Not cultic, ceremonial, or ritual.
Index of /tracks/03_Leviticus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 07-28-2016 11:15 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 240 of 716 (788254)
07-28-2016 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by LamarkNewAge
07-27-2016 6:18 PM


Re: "Pork, in contrast is unimportant."
LamarkNewAge writes:
They ate the fish, but was it from a killed animal or "3-d printed" "lab-grown type meat" (with no killing)?
Or... the little boy donating his lunch prompted other people to share their lunches. There's no need to bring up any nonsense about vegetarianism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-27-2016 6:18 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 12:04 PM ringo has replied
 Message 248 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 12:43 PM ringo has replied

  
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