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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2495
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 211 of 716 (788184)
07-26-2016 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Faith
07-25-2016 10:31 PM


Ceremonial and Moral laws.
quote:
it's not a matter of whether the law was ceremonial or not
I should point out that most secular historians seem to consider any mention of food prohibitions as "cultic" or "ceremonial" and the edited text (taking out the food prohibitions) as "moral.
P45 is the edited text. (it was used by the western church including a few prominent 2nd century apologists)
One can find quite quite a lot of google books and pdfs covering the subject on the first page of google using a general web search
Google
You will see p45 and the western quotations of Acts 15:20, 15:29, 21:25 described as being changed into "moral laws" as opposed to the King James Greek text being "ceremonial".
It is a clear bias. Get used to it.
Here is what really is a ceremonial law example
quote:
Numbers 19
1And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
2 This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:
....
9 And a man that is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and lay them up without the camp in a clean place, and it shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for a water of separation: it is a purification for sin.
10 And he that gathereth the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: and it shall be unto the children of Israel, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among them, for a statute for ever.
11 He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean seven days.
12 He shall purify himself with it on the third day, and on the seventh day he shall be clean: but if he purify not himself the third day, then the seventh day he shall not be clean.
13 Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.
Another
quote:
Haggai 2:11-15
11Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Ask now the priests concerning the law, saying,
12 If one bear holy flesh in the skirt of his garment, and with his skirt do touch bread, or pottage, or wine, or oil, or any meat, shall it be holy? And the priests answered and said, No.
13 Then said Haggai, If one that is unclean by a dead body touch any of these, shall it be unclean? And the priests answered and said, It shall be unclean.
14 Then answered Haggai, and said, So is this people, and so is this nation before me, saith the Lord; and so is every work of their hands; and that which they offer there is unclean.
15 And now, I pray you, consider from this day and upward, from before a stone was laid upon a stone in the temple of the Lord:
To eat pork or not is a moral law.
Not ceremonial of cultic or ritual law.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

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 Message 206 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 10:31 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Phat, posted 07-26-2016 6:37 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 212 of 716 (788186)
07-26-2016 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by LamarkNewAge
07-26-2016 5:44 PM


Re: Ceremonial and Moral laws.
To eat pork or not is a moral law.
Not ceremonial of cultic or ritual law.
Not any more. That law was for a particular people in a particular time. I would think that moral laws, in contrast, never change. We may be in an age of grace, for example, yet "thou shalt not kill" is still a moral law as well as a legal one. Pork, in contrast is unimportant.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-26-2016 5:44 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2495
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 213 of 716 (788192)
07-26-2016 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Phat
07-26-2016 6:37 PM


"Pork, in contrast is unimportant."
Then why was James (the brother of Jesus) a vegetarian according to every early source? (I don't think Acts 15:20, 15:29, 21:25 indicates vegetarianism though somebody reading it - without any other informations - might think it says such.)
The biblical text of Paul offers fairly strong evidence that he was a vegetarian.
The Egyptians, Hittites, and especially the Canaanites didn't eat pork. Neither did the Philistines after 1000 B.C.E.
Zoroaster didn't consider animal suffering to be unimportant.
Neither did the Hindus.
Or the Navajo. (didn't eat pork)
Or the Zulu. (didn't eat pork)
Most Christians (if one includes gnostics as "Christians") were vegetarian. Like all of the Jewish Christians. Many of the famous Orthodox Christians were too.
A fundamentalist should see Jesus as performing magic tricks to create fake fish to eat (not real meat).
The destruction of the Temple was interpreted as a New Age, and vegetarianism was the rule among Jewish Christians.
Paul said Christians should become vegetarian as they increasingly become observed by others (eat it if you hide the fact of what you are eating from vegetarians, infact you can't even know what some food is in order to be able to eat it). The "market" of Paul's time can't be private anymore. There are worldwide commodity markets and statistics and everybody knows who is eating what
A fundamentalist should see Jesus and/or God as seeing this Temple destruction situation through.

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 Message 212 by Phat, posted 07-26-2016 6:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

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 Message 215 by NoNukes, posted 07-27-2016 5:12 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 214 of 716 (788196)
07-26-2016 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by LamarkNewAge
07-26-2016 4:04 PM


Re: Temple
LamarkNewAge writes:
I still don't understand why an "incarnated son" or "God incarnate" Messiah might have been unknown when there is supposedly all these "fulfilled prophecies".
Something just isn't adding up here.
Why the ignorance of such things in 55 A.D.?
The Israelites were still wanting a god that would do what they wanted. They wanted power in the here and now, and even though they were in the promised land they were still under Roman rule and still in exile. Jesus' message was not about gaining military power but about influencing the enemy with kindness, truth and love. That sold then just about as well as it does today. Further, the message became that God was not just a God for the Jews but for the whole world. It wasn't a message that everyone wanted to hear.
Many believed but many didn't.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-26-2016 4:04 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-27-2016 10:39 AM GDR has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 716 (788205)
07-27-2016 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by LamarkNewAge
07-26-2016 7:00 PM


Re: "Pork, in contrast is unimportant."
A fundamentalist should see Jesus as performing magic tricks to create fake fish to eat (not real meat).
Except that the text talks about collecting the fish from folks before feeding the multitude. Apparently somebody was eating fish. Jesus performed a miracle in which cast nets came up brimming full of fish. (Luke 5:7, John 21:6) Some of the disciples were fishermen by trade. I don't think the fake fish guess holds up all that well.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-26-2016 7:00 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-27-2016 10:49 AM NoNukes has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 659 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 216 of 716 (788206)
07-27-2016 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
07-27-2013 8:33 AM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
The Messiah was to bring in the earthly kingdom of God. He came as a humble servant the first time. There are prophecies concerning the Messiah that do not discuss the warrior king aspect. He fulfills those prophecies. God. did not specify a time when he would assume the warrior king aspect. There is still the rest of time for that to. occur. God said he himself would take away the sins of the world. Since Jesus was God, the first advent was committed to fulfilling that prophecy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 07-27-2013 8:33 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 07-27-2016 8:23 AM foreveryoung has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34047
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 217 of 716 (788209)
07-27-2016 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by foreveryoung
07-27-2016 6:05 AM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
foreveryoung writes:
The Messiah was to bring in the earthly kingdom of God. He came as a humble servant the first time. There are prophecies concerning the Messiah that do not discuss the warrior king aspect. He fulfills those prophecies. God. did not specify a time when he would assume the warrior king aspect. There is still the rest of time for that to. occur. God said he himself would take away the sins of the world. Since Jesus was God, the first advent was committed to fulfilling that prophecy.
So far whenever we have actually looked at those prophecies in context the result has been that Jesus did not fulfill any of them except a few examples of "self-fulfilling staged events"; carny tricks.
However if you think there are such prophecies please start yet another thread on the subject and we will once again go through the exercise.
Yes, it is possible to take passage out of context and quote-mine and that is a common practice but only works with those who willfully ignore what is actually written in context.
As I have said, if Jesus ever becomes the Warrior Prince successfully and establishes a Jewish Kingdom that rules all, then he would be the Messiah. But until that happens he is just a failed Messiah.
But there is also no evidence that Jesus took away the sins of the world. True, the early marketeers of Christianity did try to redefine what the Jewish Messiah would be but they failed. They did create a new definition of what they thought a Messiah would be that was a different set of characteristics than those held by the Hebrews, but that still would not make Jesus the Jewish Messiah.
AbE: It also seems that most folk claiming to be Bible Christians or Evangelical Christians do not even believe that Jesus took away the sins of the world, rather they seem to believe Jesus took away "THEIR" sins.
That has always seemed kinda funny to me.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

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 Message 216 by foreveryoung, posted 07-27-2016 6:05 AM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by foreveryoung, posted 07-27-2016 3:17 PM jar has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2495
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 218 of 716 (788211)
07-27-2016 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by GDR
07-26-2016 11:52 PM


Military Conquest or Prince of Peace? re:GDR.
quote:
The Israelites were still wanting a god that would do what they wanted. They wanted power in the here and now, and even though they were in the promised land they were still under Roman rule and still in exile. Jesus' message was not about gaining military power but about influencing the enemy with kindness, truth and love. That sold then just about as well as it does today. Further, the message became that God was not just a God for the Jews but for the whole world. It wasn't a message that everyone wanted to hear.
Many believed but many didn't.
Jesus probably saw himself as being what you say he was. James and Paul (FOR SURE) sure did see Jesus as an anti-nationalistic, peaceful, and loving fulfillment of the Old Testament. I'll even give an example proving James did indeed see things like you say we should.
But the problem is that the inter-testamental literature doesn't seem to back up your claim that the Old Testament Messiah predictions were interpreted as such.
Here is James in Acts 15
quote:
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
That is the most interesting quote in the entire Bible IMO.
Look at the difference between the Septuagint and the Massorah Old Testament text of Amos 9:11-12
quote:
Massorah
In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
quote:
Septuagint
In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and will rebuild the ruins of it, and will set up the parts thereof that have been broken down, and will build it up as in the ancient days: that the remnant of men, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek me, saith the Lord who does all these things.
( Table of Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, in English translation is source of quotes)
The Septuagint backs up your claim that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy.
The Massorah contradicts your claims.
Call that a split decision.
But there is still the much larger difficulty in matching the incarnate (son of) God concept with the Old Testament verses. The supreme "I am" concept of a single God taking many forms (including an "eternal" (?) Holy Spirit) was unknown by 12 individuals even in 55-57 AD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by GDR, posted 07-26-2016 11:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by GDR, posted 07-27-2016 1:25 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2495
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 219 of 716 (788212)
07-27-2016 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by NoNukes
07-27-2016 5:12 AM


Re: "Pork, in contrast is unimportant."
I said:
quote:
"A fundamentalist should see Jesus as performing magic tricks to create fake fish to eat (not real meat)."
The response was:
quote:
Except that the text talks about collecting the fish from folks before feeding the multitude. Apparently somebody was eating fish. Jesus performed a miracle in which cast nets came up brimming full of fish. (Luke 5:7, John 21:6) Some of the disciples were fishermen by trade. I don't think the fake fish guess holds up all that well.
Turning fish into a much larger amount of fish "left over" after the meal was done could very well be seen an making up entirely new and totally different fish. This is lab-grown and "3-D printed" fish to an entirely new level.
The alcohol that was made from water, during a feast, might not have included the initial elements.
The fish could have all been fake.
Fundamentalists always want a "harmony" of scripture with the teachings of the Roman Catholic church (and the billion person strong "Protestant" amen squad that simply are copy cats of the Catholic traditions and teachings), but why not look for a harmony that matches up with the spirit of the teachings and interpretations of the Jewish Christian branch of James, the Ebionites, and the Elkesaites which was equally strong for centuries after the Catholics came to be around 80-100 AD?
Why?
Why not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by NoNukes, posted 07-27-2016 5:12 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 07-27-2016 11:53 AM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 229 by NoNukes, posted 07-27-2016 4:11 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 220 of 716 (788216)
07-27-2016 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by LamarkNewAge
07-27-2016 10:49 AM


Re: "Pork, in contrast is unimportant."
LNA writes:
Fundamentalists always want a "harmony" of scripture with the teachings of the Roman Catholic church (and the billion person strong "Protestant" amen squad that simply are copy cats of the Catholic traditions and teachings), but why not look for a harmony that matches up with the spirit of the teachings and interpretations of the Jewish Christian branch of James, the Ebionites, and the Elkesaites which was equally strong for centuries after the Catholics came to be around 80-100 AD?
Personally I find very little credibility nor any sort of "spirit" of the teachings through ancient scribblings...apart from the ones that I believe in.
It has been said that truth is not always popular. You seem to find solace in internet quotes defending the veracity of ancient religions. I find that irrelevant in 2016.
My critics would agree with you that the protestant "amen" squad simply loves harmony and popular teachings that itching ears desire to hear.
The educated secular mind dismisses modern teachings as little more than feelgood "woo". I have personally seen and witnessed some major changes in people who believe. Granted, 75% are of the amen squad and have little more than an emotional catharsis...but the truth is not only out there but He can live in here (in you) if you allow it.
But apparently you have more faith in ancient scribblings and long dead commentators of the same. To me, that stuff is boring and uninspiring.
the educated secular mind dismisses as "woo".
Getting back to "pork"...I will say that pork is much more sanitary today than it was back in the day...though many of my friends still refuse to eat it. In my opinion, this should be a preference and not some dietary rule.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-27-2016 10:49 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-27-2016 1:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 221 of 716 (788217)
07-27-2016 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by LamarkNewAge
07-27-2016 10:39 AM


Re: Military Conquest or Prince of Peace? re:GDR.
LamrkNewAge writes:
The Septuagint backs up your claim that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy.
The Massorah contradicts your claims.
Call that a split decision.
It is interesting to discuss the ways in which Jesus fulfilled the messianic mission but in the final analysis it isn't really about how we interpret the texts. What is important is God's reaction to the life and message of Jesus. God confirmed and vindicated Jesus by resurrecting Him.
If God hadn't resurrected Jesus then there is no reason to think that any of His followers, (or later on Paul for that matter), would have considered Him any more than just another failed messiah, and we wouldn't be having this discussion today.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-27-2016 10:39 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2495
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 222 of 716 (788218)
07-27-2016 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
07-27-2016 11:53 AM


Re: "Pork, in contrast is unimportant."
quote:
Personally I find very little credibility nor any sort of "spirit" of the teachings through ancient scribblings...apart from the ones that I believe in.
Acts 15 was my last quote.
James the Just. James the brother of Jesus. James the lesser.
quote:
It has been said that truth is not always popular. You seem to find solace in internet quotes defending the veracity of ancient religions. I find that irrelevant in 2016.
Is that the Chinese history website I quoted about the Mani-founded branch of Jewish gnostic Christianity?
It was a Chinese history site lol. That was a small part of the site.
The kind words about Mani and his followers were in the context of critical commentary on Chinese religious tolerance. The point was that the typical thing people hear is that the Chinese have been historically tolerant of different religions but the site lamented the fact that it is only true relative to Europe.
Romans 8:9 says you have to have the spirit of Christ to be a true follower.
I offered a concession to you that some were genuine.
I showed an example of the very large gnostic sect founded by Mani (but based on 1st centry Jewish Christianity).
quote:
Getting back to "pork"...I will say that pork is much more sanitary today than it was back in the day...though many of my friends still refuse to eat it. In my opinion, this should be a preference and not some dietary rule.
There are over 1.5 billion followers of the Hindu religion (including the Buddah branch).
The concept of karma automatically makes most vegetarian.
Paul talked about sins against conscience in Romans 14-15.
Karma has to do with killing living creatures. Killing conscious creatures.
Parasites have little or nothing to do with it.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 489 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 223 of 716 (788219)
07-27-2016 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by GDR
07-26-2016 3:57 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
He fulfilled the messianic requirements, but not in the way the majority of Israelites expected.
There's little point in a prophecy that's "fulfilled" in an unexpected way. I've predicted that Donald Trump will win the US Presidency; if he doesn't, I can always say it was a "moral" victory - but of course it will really mean that I was wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by GDR, posted 07-26-2016 3:57 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by GDR, posted 07-27-2016 3:49 PM ringo has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 659 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 224 of 716 (788220)
07-27-2016 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by jar
07-27-2016 8:23 AM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
They are wrong. Jesus did take away the sins of the world.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Not all men are saved however. They have to reconcile with God. All they have to do is accept with Jesus did on their behalf. If they refuse, God's taking away all sins of the world does no good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 07-27-2016 8:23 AM jar has replied

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 225 of 716 (788221)
07-27-2016 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by ringo
07-27-2016 3:15 PM


Re: Temple
ringo writes:
There's little point in a prophecy that's "fulfilled" in an unexpected way. I've predicted that Donald Trump will win the US Presidency; if he doesn't, I can always say it was a "moral" victory - but of course it will really mean that I was wrong.
Once again though it all comes back to the resurrection. If Jesus is resurrected by God then we can have confidence in Jesus' self understanding. If the resurrection is not true then the whole point is moot anyway.
As I said in my other reply if Jesus wasn't resurrected then He would simply have been another failed messiah and His followers would simply have disappeared back to their fishing etc.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by ringo, posted 07-27-2016 3:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by ringo, posted 07-27-2016 3:52 PM GDR has replied
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