Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 48 (9179 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Post Volume: Total: 918,237 Year: 5,494/9,624 Month: 519/323 Week: 16/143 Day: 6/10 Hour: 3/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
ringo
Member (Idle past 527 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 10 of 716 (703594)
07-25-2013 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
07-25-2013 3:44 AM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
Faith writes:
The scriptures do in fact indicate two comings of Christ if you know how to read them properly.
The scriptures also contain my phone number if you know how to read them properly (and if you already have the information that you want to "extract"). But if you actually read the scriptures, not so much.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 07-25-2013 3:44 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 527 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 168 of 716 (787757)
07-21-2016 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by GDR
07-20-2016 3:54 PM


Re: Daniel 9
GDR writes:
...how he rebuilt the temple, not as a building, but in the hearts of those that are followers of His message of loving others as we love ourselves.
So he built a metaphor, not a temple.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by GDR, posted 07-20-2016 3:54 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by GDR, posted 07-21-2016 1:37 PM ringo has replied
 Message 182 by Phat, posted 07-24-2016 10:20 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 527 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 172 of 716 (787812)
07-22-2016 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by GDR
07-21-2016 1:37 PM


Re: Daniel 9
GDR writes:
For the Jews the Temple was where one could go to meet with God, or in other words the Temple was where God 's world or dimension overlapped with our world or dimension.
And yet the Jews don't accept Jesus as "the Temple" - so you can't use their concept of the Temple to back up your claim.
GDR writes:
Jesus said that the overlap occurred in the hearts of those that had faith in His message of loving others as they loved themselves, and went further in saying that the temple had been corrupted..
Which has nothing to do with Him being the Messiah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by GDR, posted 07-21-2016 1:37 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by GDR, posted 07-22-2016 2:05 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 527 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 176 of 716 (787899)
07-23-2016 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by GDR
07-22-2016 2:05 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
In other words Jesus was redefining the idea of Temple.
Well, according to your quotes it was the epistle writers who were redefining the idea of Temple - and they were doing it after Jesus had already died and failed to fulfill the requirements to be the Messiah.
Was Napoleon the Anti-Christ? Let's just redefine Anti-Christ to fit Napoleon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by GDR, posted 07-22-2016 2:05 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by GDR, posted 07-23-2016 8:17 PM ringo has replied
 Message 183 by Phat, posted 07-24-2016 10:39 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 527 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 190 of 716 (787968)
07-24-2016 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Phat
07-24-2016 10:20 AM


Re: Daniel 9
Phat writes:
The author(s) used a metaphor to teach and/or encourage the reader that we ourselves can be a temple of the Holy Spirit.
Yes, and as you point out, that idea may go back as far as Daniel or farther. But it's a separate idea from the Messiah actually rebuilding a physical temple.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Phat, posted 07-24-2016 10:20 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 527 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 191 of 716 (787970)
07-24-2016 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Phat
07-24-2016 10:39 AM


Re: Temple
Phat writes:
But as you said, I can use writing in any book in any timeframe and in any context to support a claim.
Would it be any clearer if I said you can MISuse any book?
Phat writes:
Who are you to determine that a particular book or scroll was meant only for the jews of that time?
Who am I to determine that the owner's handbook for a 1965 Pontiac Parisienne was meant for the owners of 1965 Pontiac Paresiennes? A sane person. You can pretend it was meant for teaching Vietnamese cooking if you want but who's going to take you seriously?
Phat writes:
We could redefine anti-christ to fit Donald Trump or we could even show a similarity between Donald Trumps ego and Napoleons.
Exactly. You can draw a parallel between any two things if you jump through enough hoops. That's my point: You can draw parallels between Jesus and the Messiah by doing the appropriate gymnastics but that doesn't mean the prophets meant Jesus when they said Messiah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Phat, posted 07-24-2016 10:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 527 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 192 of 716 (787971)
07-24-2016 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by GDR
07-23-2016 8:17 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
It was Jesus who redefined how establishing the Kingdom and the rebuilding of the Temple was to be accomplished.
So Jesus redefined the prophecies to point to Himself. Is that self-serving at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by GDR, posted 07-23-2016 8:17 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by GDR, posted 07-24-2016 4:13 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 527 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 203 of 716 (788062)
07-25-2016 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by GDR
07-24-2016 4:13 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
He understood that was His God given vocation and a vocation that would lead to his death.
Your reasoning is circular: He was the Messiah, so he redefined what the Messiah was to suit Himself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by GDR, posted 07-24-2016 4:13 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by GDR, posted 07-25-2016 1:39 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 527 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 207 of 716 (788127)
07-26-2016 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by GDR
07-25-2016 1:39 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
Jesus simply understood through study and prayer what God actually had to say through the reading of their scriptures. It wasn't about getting God to serve themselves but about getting them to serve others.
That's pretty much a separate issue from the Messiah. Jesus taught the Jews how to be better Jews. That doesn't make Him the Messiah.
I tend to agree that Jesus' teachings are a better idea than a military conqueror. But Christians should concentrate on those teachings and let go of the idea of Messiah. He may have been better than the Messiah but he was no Messiah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by GDR, posted 07-25-2016 1:39 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by GDR, posted 07-26-2016 3:57 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 527 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 223 of 716 (788219)
07-27-2016 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by GDR
07-26-2016 3:57 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
He fulfilled the messianic requirements, but not in the way the majority of Israelites expected.
There's little point in a prophecy that's "fulfilled" in an unexpected way. I've predicted that Donald Trump will win the US Presidency; if he doesn't, I can always say it was a "moral" victory - but of course it will really mean that I was wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by GDR, posted 07-26-2016 3:57 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by GDR, posted 07-27-2016 3:49 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 527 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 226 of 716 (788222)
07-27-2016 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by GDR
07-27-2016 3:49 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
If Jesus is resurrected by God then we can have confidence in Jesus' self understanding.
Jesus' self-understanding is irrelevant. A prophecy that nobody can understand before the fact is worthless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by GDR, posted 07-27-2016 3:49 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-27-2016 3:58 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 245 by GDR, posted 07-28-2016 12:29 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 527 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 240 of 716 (788254)
07-28-2016 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by LamarkNewAge
07-27-2016 6:18 PM


Re: "Pork, in contrast is unimportant."
LamarkNewAge writes:
They ate the fish, but was it from a killed animal or "3-d printed" "lab-grown type meat" (with no killing)?
Or... the little boy donating his lunch prompted other people to share their lunches. There's no need to bring up any nonsense about vegetarianism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-27-2016 6:18 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 12:04 PM ringo has replied
 Message 248 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 12:43 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 527 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 246 of 716 (788263)
07-28-2016 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by LamarkNewAge
07-28-2016 12:04 PM


Re: Vegetarian issues nonsense?
LamarkNewAge writes:
They are super duper important when it comes to the history of the early church. And the beliefs.
What does it have to do with messianic prophecies?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 12:04 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 12:45 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 527 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 250 of 716 (788267)
07-28-2016 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by GDR
07-28-2016 12:29 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
The point isn't about what people think they mean. The important part is what God intended.
What's the difference between what people think the prophecies mean and what people think God intended?
GDR writes:
Again, if Jesus is resurrected then we can have confidence that Jesus had it right, and subsequent to that a great many people have come to believe that Jesus got it right.
If the people who wrote the Old Testament can't be relied on to convey God's intent, how can the people who wrote the New Testament be relied on to convey Jesus' history?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by GDR, posted 07-28-2016 12:29 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by GDR, posted 08-01-2016 6:41 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 527 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 251 of 716 (788268)
07-28-2016 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by LamarkNewAge
07-28-2016 12:45 PM


Re: Another "nonsense" charge by Ringo?
LamarkNewAge writes:
ringo writes:
What does it have to do with messianic prophecies?
Everything.
So tell us something.
LamarkNewAge writes:
The Temple destruction and ending of sacrifices with its associated New Age of peace and no killing is very important.
The "New Age of peace and no killing" has nothing to do with vegetarianism. It's only about killing people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 12:45 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 1:00 PM ringo has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024