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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 145 of 716 (710581)
11-07-2013 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by jaywill
11-07-2013 4:03 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
That was an impressively long evasion of the question. Please can you have another go at answering why this prophecy was not fulfilled without torturing words and meaning.
Mark 13:24-30: "The sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light. And the stars of heaven will fall and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then he shall send his angels and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven .. Verily I say to you, that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done." See also Matthew 24:29-35 and Luke 21;25-33.
As you know, I rarely get involved with biblical discussions, but this is factual - it says this:
"....Verily I say to you, that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done."
It didn't happen.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by jaywill, posted 11-07-2013 4:03 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 149 of 716 (710627)
11-07-2013 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by jaywill
11-07-2013 3:30 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
In case you didn't notice I said
without torturing words and meaning
The words are clear. It was supposed to be within the generation of those listening. And it was pretty clear that those listening thought so too.
Didn't happen.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by jaywill, posted 11-07-2013 3:30 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 329 of 716 (793283)
10-25-2016 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 328 by GDR
10-24-2016 7:46 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
After the crucifixion his followers just saw Jesus as another failed messiah, that is until the Resurrection.
Yes, not only because he was killed, just like any other bloke, but also because he failed to return as he promised he would. Thereby failing his own prophecy.
There is no reason whatsoever to think that the movement would have continued if God hadn't resurrected Jesus.
Which is exactly why the myth of the resurrection had to be created. Note that it's easy to create the myth of a resurrection and susequent permanent disappearance, but impossible to create the reality of a real return - the 'second coming'. Just like fake healers can 'heal' those with invisible ailments but not those requiring new limbs.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by GDR, posted 10-24-2016 7:46 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by GDR, posted 10-25-2016 7:26 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 335 of 716 (793335)
10-26-2016 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 332 by GDR
10-25-2016 7:26 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
Welll He did return in His resurrected body.
So the story goes.
Which prophesy are you referring to?
The second coming.
First off it would take a pretty large group to start a myth like that.
No it wouldn't, a rumour would do it - even today it's easy to convince a group of people about almost anything. We're absolutely riddled with superstitions and conspiracy theories. The existence of similar myths from thousands of years ago still believed by millions today, tells us how easy it is to delude people.
As far as the second coming, or the end of times go Jesus was clear that He didn't know and that only the Father knew the time.
Yet he told everyone that it would happen within the generation. And that is what all his followers believed. Hiding a body is easy, telling people you've seen a dead person is easy. Returning from the dead on a cloud surrounded by cherubim and seraphim at the right hand of the Lord is rather trickier. So surprise! The one thing that might have proved his point didn't happen. And still hasn't happened 2000 years later - despite beliver's predicting it happening tomorrow for centuries.
None of this story makes any sense at all. If a god wanted to convince the world of his message what a cack-handed and convoluted way of doing it. I find it really hard to believe that grown-ups believe this stuff. But then we know that people will believe almost anything - regardless of evidence or lack of it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by GDR, posted 10-25-2016 7:26 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 473 of 716 (806709)
04-27-2017 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 465 by Faith
04-27-2017 10:34 AM


Re: The Star: It's All Natural Astronomical Phenomena
Faith writes:
Whatever stopping right over Bethlehem means ....
It means it's a myth, a magical story designed to promote the importance of the mythical event. Jupiter is 365 million miles away at it's closest point, it doesn't 'stop' over anything.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by Faith, posted 04-27-2017 10:34 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 501 of 716 (806754)
04-27-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 495 by Faith
04-27-2017 11:59 AM


Re: The Star: It's All Natural Astronomical Phenomena
Faith writes:
Observation may not be the key to the stopping of the star, it could have been based on the Magis' own calculations since they had spent their lives at that sort of thing. I think this is an implication, though Larson doesn't say this.
And neither does the bible. You don't even know who these guys are, how many there were or where they came from. Nor even when they came.
And it's only Matthew (whoever he was) that bothers to mention this important event at all.
I dunno Faith, you're prepared to swallow any old bollox if it fits your model, but if we show you hard facts that don't, you find a dozen bizarre reasons why it doesn't work.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by Faith, posted 04-27-2017 11:59 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 585 of 716 (806900)
04-29-2017 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 584 by Faith
04-29-2017 8:16 AM


Re: Symbols and Meanings
Faith writes:
The Bible can only be interpreted through the Holy Spirit. Unredeemed human intellect will never get it right, no matter how good the intellect.
Sheesh, how useless is that?
There are only two interpretations.
1. It's miracle, in which case DavidJay's angel is the best option as it would actually work. An angel really could guide a few blokes from one place to another place. (Unlike a planet 360 million miles away, that moves all over the place.)
2. It's a story....
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by Faith, posted 04-29-2017 8:16 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 636 of 716 (807026)
04-30-2017 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 635 by Faith
04-30-2017 11:57 AM


Re: The Star: Common Occurrences Together Become Rare
Faith writes:
There isn't one thing in the entire Bible that has failed,
Well I have one fairly significant one - the second coming, didn't happen. Or if it did, no-one noticed.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by Faith, posted 04-30-2017 11:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 638 by Faith, posted 04-30-2017 12:44 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 675 of 716 (807354)
05-02-2017 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 672 by Faith
05-02-2017 12:35 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Faith writes:
The whole sky is marked out with constellations made up of particular groups of stars given names of mythical figures.
This makes me laugh....the contellations are made up of stars that have absolutely no relationship with each other. They were described by people who didn't know this.
quote:
Constellations can be a useful way to help identify positions of stars in the sky. Constellations have imaginary boundaries formed by "connecting the dots" and all the stars within those boundaries are labeled with the name of that constellation. However, keep in mind that constellations are not real objects; they are just patterns as seen from our observation point on Earth. The patterns we see are for the most part just by chance. The individual stars in a constellation may appear to be very close to each other, but in fact they can be separated by huge distances in space and have no real connection to each other at all. For example, look at the image below of the stars which make up the constellation Orion. The stars in this easily-observed constellation are at VERY different distances from Earth!

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 672 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 12:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 677 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 1:00 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 680 of 716 (807361)
05-02-2017 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 677 by Faith
05-02-2017 1:00 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Faith writes:
Oh good grief. The reality of the star positions doesn't change the fact that the patterns are treated as objectively there and can be referred to as identifiable entities. It's an optical illusion but who cares. Virgo is still Virgo to the naked eye.
I guess you don't see the irony of comparing one work of fiction and imagination - contellations - with another - the bible - and attempting to extract meaning from it all.
And this from the girl that hand waves away real facts.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 677 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 1:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 681 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 1:39 PM Tangle has seen this message but not replied

  
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